TOPIC: The Value of ingredients - Discussion

There has been a lot of discussion on the value of ingredients in other threads and I think it would be helpful to move that to a thread of its own. Ingredients are likely to be the most hotly debated items on the pricelist.

Ingredients unlike any other token are not valued for what they can do in the game but are valued for what they can make at the combo desk. This makes their value extremely speculative because until Dave declares what the combo recipes cost and the combo tokens do there is no way to evaluate their value.

With other tokens the token trader know what the token can do in game and thus had a major information advantage over a new player. With ingredients the token trader knows what other ingredients have been worth in the past but does not now what the current ingredients are worth.

Secondly ingredients (until this year) had an expiration date so if a trader purchased ingredient tokens but could not get rid of them before the combo desk closed, the token was worth nothing. In the past I have had folks bring old ingredients to me looking for a trade value and I have had to pass on it. The existance of the golden fleece has changed that but again until we know what a gold fleece is worth it is all just speculation.

The cost of the other items in the relic recipe will have a huge effect on the value of a golden fleece. If the relic needs 25,000 gold in addition to the golden fleece and say two purples, then there are going to be few relics made and the price of the gold fleece could drop below 1000 GP. If the golden fleece in the main ingredient, then its prices could shoot up 10,000 GP.

So basic question is what is fair price to offer new players for ingredients.

Also remember ingredient are the only tokens that the traders are taking in trade, so they the buy prices are going to be less than the sell prices.

(Let the discussion begin, please keep it civil and avoid personal attacks)

I resemble that remark!

George, thanks for starting this thread. I agree that the value of Ingredient Tokens will be the most debated item.

I certainly hope that Relic Tokens don't require Golden Fleece tokens, I think that the Eldritch Tokens alone will be a major drain on the Ingredient Token supply.

The value of the Ingredient Tokens is highest when they are elibible for Combo Tokens. And it seems that we are getting into an "every other year" swing, where one year all the ingredients are required for a 4C Combo Token, and the next only one or two are required for the 4C Combo Token. The year the complete set is needed for the 4C combo token, the values are higher than the year they aren't.

One standard way to judge the "floor" value of an item like this is to see what the major Dealers are paying for them. That is where I came up with the $6 figure, as I was told that is what Gamingetc. was paying for Ingredient Tokens.

I wouldn't mind if relics required a golden fleece - I actually ended up with one of them!

Thanks for starting this topic in a separate thread, George. I'd been thinking overnight of a reply I wanted to make, and this morning I see the perfect place to put it ; )


Why I think 100 GP is a fair purchase price for an Ingredient

(I am certain others will have different opinions and you are welcome to them, but I wanted to show you how I reached this number, and why I think it is fair.)

Ingredients are pure speculation. No one knows what next year's combo recipes will be. And at this point, no one really knows the value of a Golden Fleece, either. The only thing we know for sure is past year's combo equivalents.

In last year's Combo's, ingredients could be replaced by 40gp, 80gp, or 250gp. If you average those, you get ~123gp. If I was to buy tokens (last year) for more than 123gp each, and use them to make combos, I would actually be losing money... because on average, I would have spent more for them, than I was saving by using the ingredient in the recipe, instead of the GP.

Factor in the fact that I do want to make a small profit, and that my time spent trading (or making combos, for that matter) is worth something, I figured 100 GP was a good starting price to offer for ingredients.

Now, I suspect that ingredients are going to be worth more than that, because of the 4C, and the Golden Fleece. I don't know it, but it is reasonable to assume that someone who holds onto their tokens will find the market price for them increases, especially once the 4C combo is announced, and once the Golden Fleece becomes a usable token. But at that point, I am being an investor, not a trader.

As an investor, I am:
- Storing the tokens, for a year or more, waiting for their value to increase
- Organizing my stock, making sure I know where to *find* them, when GenCon rolls around next year.
- Spending time on the Forums, reading up on past combos and the plans for future combos, and waiting for the official announcements of upcoming recipes
- Researching the recipes once posted, and figuring out where to get the rest of the ingredients, as well as their relative values
- taking the time to package and mail my trade tokens to Dave (for those recipes which will include trade items)
- assuming the cost for postage in the above (postage from Canada, at that!)
- Organizing & packing all the ingredients needed for combos, to transport to the Con
- Actually carrying all those tokens around (again, not an issue for casual collectors, but when you are hauling 10+ kilos of trade&combo token around, you really notice it!)
- Making sure I am free at the time the combos are happening, OR that I can arrange a proxy to get my combo tokens for me.

I do all this, every year, to turn my 100gp purchase(s) into something usable in the dungeon.

ANYONE could do this, if they choose to. (And probably with less hassle, if they are only doing it in small numbers.) But still, it's a certain amount of work to go through, to turn that ingredient into something useful.

If you want to factor the 4C and Golden Fleece into it, the ingredients could be worth a LOT more... but the hassle of collecting for multiple years, or collecting 10 ingredients, or investing in URs in order to make those Eldritch items... that's probably outside the realm of what the average player - and certainly a new player - is going to do. And for the traders who want to go through that hassle, I think they deserve to make a nice profit on it.

In my mind, 100 GP for an ingredient is a very fair price to the average player, who would rather have the gp/cash/trade value right there, than go hunting for a better deal or hold their tokens for a year in hopes of combo'ing later.

Oh, for reference, I also do my part to try & educate players, while trading.

This is what I tell the new players, when they ask me what an ingredient is worth:

If you enjoy crafting/playing the combo game, Keep Your Ingredients. They will be worth something next year... probably a lot more than 100gp (though it's possible they will be worth less).

If, however, you don't know if you'll make it to the Con next year, don't feel like organizing or keeping track of your tokens for a year, or remembering to bring them next year, don't feel like reading the forums to find out what next year's recipes will be, don't want the hassle of scrounging up a dozen other tokens for the recipe, and don't know if you'll be available at the times when combo trading happens.... then it may be worth it to sell your ingredients to someone who does have the time and effort to do those things. Or trade them for a good rare token which will increase your chances of survival in the dungeon.

A Rare healing scroll or +1 Bastard Sword is worth a lot more to the average adventurer than a severed monster limb.

If you are interested, I am buying ingredients for 100gp or trading for good Rares. You can also talk to a number of other traders who are buying ingredients. Some may offer you more, some might offer you less (especially if they already have enough lich fingers/squid ink/fangs). It's your choice, and you could always keep the ingredient as a momento of your run, even if you don't want to play the crafting game.


...

I had a lot of people decline to trade. I had a lot ask me questions about crafting, and how to get involved in that (which I answered to the best of my ability, or pointed them at the combo recipe display). I sent a few players to George because they wanted to trade for something which I didn't have in stock. I had a large number of players swap me 1:1 for ingredients I had and they didn't. And I had quite a few players sell me their ingredients for 100 GP, or trade for a Rare or two. Everyone seemed happy, and I don't feel that I fleeced anyone.

I think 100 GP is an excellent *starting point* for buying ingredients, and it's a nice round number which fits into newbie's minds well, when they try to figure out what something is worth.

One reason that I think the 40/80/250 GP value shouldn't be used to set the value of the ingredient tokens is that it is so widely recognized that ingredient tokens are worth more than that, that almost nobody actually uses Ingredient Tokens instead of GP for 1C/2C/3C Combo Tokens. Last year when I helped with the Combo Token trade-ins one night, it was VERY rare that anyone turned in an Ingredient Token, it was probably 99% GP. I'd be interested to hear if it was the same this year, but if the vast majority of people don't trade in ingredient tokens for the 1C-3C Combo Tokens, that is a pretty strong argument that the ingredient tokens are worth significantly more than that.

Raven,

You don't feel you "fleeced" anyone? Lol

Rafiq

Mike Steele wrote: One reason that I think the 40/80/250 GP value shouldn't be used to set the value of the ingredient tokens is that it is so widely recognized that ingredient tokens are worth more than that, that almost nobody actually uses Ingredient Tokens instead of GP for 1C/2C/3C Combo Tokens. Last year when I helped with the Combo Token trade-ins one night, it was VERY rare that anyone turned in an Ingredient Token, it was probably 99% GP.

Fascinating. I didn't know the numbers on that, but they really do seem to indicate that the average player isn't using their ingredients for combo'ing.

So, I am curious... what is the average player using their ingredients for? I don't imagine thousands of players are all saving up to make Golden Fleece. Nor do I suspect they are all being stockpiled for the 4C. I bet a lot of people are just... keeping them. Either because they don't know what to do with them, or because they want the trophy as a souvenir.

@ Rafiq: Lol ; )

So, it'll be "hard" to locate the three ingredients I need from this last year?

Assuming I'd be able to combo the rest of the items that may be needed for whatever 4C is offered next year...I sense...chaos in my future. *heh*

Raven wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: One reason that I think the 40/80/250 GP value shouldn't be used to set the value of the ingredient tokens is that it is so widely recognized that ingredient tokens are worth more than that, that almost nobody actually uses Ingredient Tokens instead of GP for 1C/2C/3C Combo Tokens. Last year when I helped with the Combo Token trade-ins one night, it was VERY rare that anyone turned in an Ingredient Token, it was probably 99% GP.

Fascinating. I didn't know the numbers on that, but they really do seem to indicate that the average player isn't using their ingredients for combo'ing.

So, I am curious... what is the average player using their ingredients for? I don't imagine thousands of players are all saving up to make Golden Fleece. Nor do I suspect they are all being stockpiled for the 4C. I bet a lot of people are just... keeping them. Either because they don't know what to do with them, or because they want the trophy as a souvenir.

@ Rafiq: Lol ; )

I was surprised also at how few ingredient tokens were traded in for combos, it's something you wouldn't realize unless you were helping at the combo trade-ins.

I suspect the average player isn't even aware that there are combo tokens, they probably just run the adventures, get their treasure coins, and hopefully return next year to play again. But there were a number of casual TD players that just traded in for one or two combos, and nearly all of them also used GP. Some number of them probably traded them to token traders outside of TD, or sold/traded them to GamingEtc. Many may not even realize that they are ingredient tokens or what they do. Last year I had a couple of Creeper Thorns mixed in with my common tokens until I found them just before GENCON, because in my first pass through the tokens after GENCON I'd lumped them in with commons because they looked kind of like a common weapon.

Raven,
I think folks just keep them. I often have folks walk up with bag of tokens (in many cases wooden and plastic tokens) and ask "is anything in there you would want?". Many times, I would find a couple of out of date ingredients in their stash. In previous years, I would sadly tell them the old ingredients were not worth anything. This year I have finally been able to offer them something for old ingredients.

My fear is there will be very few golden fleece needed each year, and the market for old ingredients will dry up. I still have a lot left over from 2008 (which shows the basic danger of trading for ingredients) that I am need to get rid of for golden fleece.