TOPIC: Raven's Rough Guide to Token Trading - W.I.P.

jtillots wrote: Oh, and by the way, this is awesome!

Thanks!

And many thanks to the fine folks who are contributing their knowledge and proof-reading skills to this project, too!

Raven, I don't play Wizards either, but it seems to me that some of the high-end damage scrolls (like Chain Lightning) have reasonably high demand because they give you pretty good bang for your buck. Some of the lesser damage scrolls don't have much demand because a lot of Wizards (ours is a good example) will do more damage just smacking the monster than casting a 6 point damage spell. I do agree with you that the newer players are more likely to want to own some of the lesser damage scrolls. Magic Missile scrolls were pretty handy for aiming at the Black Pearl Ioun Stone also.

As with most consumables, the value per point of damage/healing grows exponentially based on the rarity. While a scroll of magic missile, which does 4 damage, may only for 10 gold, 100-200 GP for the rare scrolls (Lightning Strike, Chain Lighting, etc.) is easily feasible. I believe listing a price range of 1-10 GP per point of damage would be optimal so as to not mislead newbies that their common scrolls are worth more than they actually are, along with preventing the newbies from becoming outraged when hearing a trader demands 200 gold for a rare scroll.

Again, thank you for the feedback.

How does this strike you?

Damage scrolls: On average, scrolls that damage a monster tend to be worth 1-10 GP per point of damage caused (less for low-end damage, more for high-end damage). Scrolls with no DC (difficulty check) will be worth more as they are guaranteed hits (barring Magic Resistance). So a Scroll of Magic Missile (4 pts, no DC) could be ~20 GP, while Lightning Strike (12pts, no DC) is 120+ gp.

Raven wrote: Again, thank you for the feedback.

How does this strike you?

Damage scrolls: On average, scrolls that damage a monster tend to be worth 1-10 GP per point of damage caused (less for low-end damage, more for high-end damage). Scrolls with no DC (difficulty check) will be worth more as they are guaranteed hits (barring Magic Resistance). So a Scroll of Magic Missile (4 pts, no DC) could be ~20 GP, while Lightning Strike (12pts, no DC) is 120+ gp.

I have a hunch that common damage scrolls are worth even less than that. I'd gladly trade all of my Scrolls of Magic Missiles for 20 GP each, but I don't think there would be buyers. That would be 500 GP equivalent for the Alchemist Parchment, and they go for far less than that.

Mike Steele wrote: I have a hunch that common damage scrolls are worth even less than that. I'd gladly trade all of my Scrolls of Magic Missiles for 20 GP each, but I don't think there would be buyers. That would be 500 GP equivalent for the Alchemist Parchment, and they go for far less than that.

Sounds like you should start a magic missile trade topic. You never know - I know George is super surprised about his ingredients trades.

I suspect Alchemist Parchment are so cheap because of all the "useless" scrolls which go into them... stuff like "Detect Glyph" and "Gaze Reflection" and "Detect Life". But if traders agree that Magic Missile is just not worth that much, I can edit again.

Perhaps:

Damage scrolls: On average, scrolls that do damage are 1-10 GP per point of damage caused (less for low-end damage, more for high-end damage). Scrolls with no DC (difficulty check) will be worth more as they are guaranteed hits (barring Magic Resistance). So a common Scroll of Magic Missile (4 pts, no DC) could be ~12 GP, while the rare Lightning Strike (12pts, no DC) is 120+ gp.

Part of me wants to keep the (hypothetical) price for Magic Missile as a multiplier of 4, so newbies can see some of the (very simple) math which goes into the pricing.

Okay, I will admit that very few experienced traders are going to be thinking "Common damage scroll, that's a 3x modifier, no decrease for DC, so... lemme see... 3 times 4.... that makes 12 GP!" But a newbie can look at the scroll and think "Magic Missile with 4 pts damage and no DC will be worth more than Scroll of Ball Lightning with 4pts damage but I have to hit AC 15... So.. Ball Lightning might be 4 - 8GP."
If they can see that there's some reasoning behind the prices (instead of traders pulling them out of thin air) then token trading as a whole is less mysterious, and they'll feel more comfortable doing it.

EDIT: But speaking of George... he did a lot of trading on-site. I'm curious how much interest he had in damage scrolls, from the relative newbies he traded with. (Because I doubt that anyone on the forums would be as interested in Common scrolls as unequipped newbies might have been)

For someone who equips 2 wizards, a cleric, and a druid for three runs a year, this is how I "valuate" scrolls. So YMMV, but this is the thinking behind what I think is a fair price for a scroll.


Damage scrolls scale up in price on a logarithmic scale.

Things that determine the price of a damage scroll (in my mind):

How much damage it can do: I start with a base of 2 GP/Pt of dmg

Negative modifiers:
Is there saving throw? Yes -1 GP/pt of dmg
Is there a slide? Yes -1 Gp/pt of dmg
(which means if they ever have a spell that has both a slide and a saving throw it's almost worthless)

Positive modifiers:
Can it affect multiple targets (this is what made chain lightning so valuable was the year we had the stirges it was the "I Win" button)? +1 GP/pt of dmg

Is it an "All?" - in this case that means classes like Paladins and Rangers can use them, which increases their usability. +1 GP/pt of dmg

Is it a "Divine" damage scroll - these are fairly new and much desired by divine casters who, knowing the sooner you kill the monster the less damage you have to heal, like to have these in abundance. +1 gp/pt of dmg (does not stack with the "All" +1 GP).

After that you apply the following.

Rarity Multiplier: Common x1, Uncommon x2, Rare x4-5 (caveat, if there is a lesser rarity spell that does the same, then use that: Ex: Fire Arrow and Scorching ray) (second caveat - there are times where I think a rare might be worth x5 - it really depends on how many of it I have in stock and how many I expect to burn through, for the examples below I will use x4, but don't be surprised if most merchants trade at x5)

Round to the nearest 5GP (just to simplify trading)

Next, there is the "Cheese-It" factor. If there is a scroll that can "solve" the problem (like the Chain Lightning vs. Stirges) or due to a known foe do extra damage (frostbolt vs. smoak) that can boost a price a variable percentage upto and at the convention.

Lastly, if can be used for a combo recipie that can often times double the value vs. comparable scrolls.


So lets see if the math works out
For "All" spells
Ball Lightning: 4pts, Slide, All, Common
So using the above formula (4x(2-1(slide)+1(All))x1 = 8, so round up to 10 gp.

Soundburst:3 pts,all, multi targets, All, uncommon.
(3x(2+1(All)+1(Multi))x2 = 24gp so round up to 25gp.

For Arcane spells
Common:
Shocking Grasp: 6pts, Slide, Common
(6x(2-1(slide)) x1 = 6gp (Round to 5)
Burning Hands: 5pt, Multi-target, Common
(5x(2+1(multi)) x1 = 15gp
MM: 4pt, common
(4x(2))x1 = 8gp (Round to 10)
Acid Spray: 5pt, Slide, Common
(5x(2-1(slide)) x1 = 5gp

Uncommon
Scorching Ray: 12pt, slide, uncommon
(12x(2-1)x2 = 24GP (Round to 25)
Shockbolt: 9pt, slide, uncommon
(9x(2-1)x2 = 18GP (Round to 20)
Frostbolt: 10pt, slide, uncommon
(10x(2-1)x2 = 20GP
Melf's Acid Arrow: 8pts, slide, uncommon
(8x(2-1)x2 = 16gp (Round to 20)

Rare
Chain lightning: 12pt, save, multi, rare
(12x(2-1(save)+1(multi)) x4 = 96gp (Round to 100)
Flame Arrow: 12pt, slide, rare (caveat - this is the same as scorching ray)
(12x(2x1)x2) = 24GP (round to 25)
Lightning Strike: 12pt, rare
(12x(2)x4 = 96GP (round to 100)

Divine:

Rare
Call Lightning: 8pt,Divine, rare
(8x(2+1)x4 = 96GP (round to 100)

So lets say Jeff creates a scroll version of Searing Light - something that could seriously help with dealing with Smoak
Searing Light: 10pt, Divine, Slide AC-15, Rare +8dmg vs. Undead
(10x(2+1(Divine)-1(Slide))x4 = 80GP, but because of its "Cheese-it factor" it would sell for at least another 20GP for 100GP each. And if the powers that be were cruel and made it part of the 4C it could easily double, if not quadruple, in value.

I hope the above makes sense.

I also use the same "valuation" criteria to determine what scrolls I give my casters to use - so for commons it mostly burning hands a couple MM to offset the fire immune crew.
For uncommons I only really use scorching rays and a soundburst on palidin and ranger if we need to saturate a room.
Then Rares - as many as I can get them to carry.

Our general strategy is use whats on your card before using scrolls, but knowing the value of healing is much greater than that of damage, I encourage my casters to burn the foe(s) down as fast as possible.

(BTW: I didn't forget the bard, but he is not my damage caster, he's my melee buffer - but I gear him a little like all the other classes when it comes to scrolls, a bit of this and a bit of that).

Wow - brilliant post, Greyseer. Thanks for the insight into the way you price out your scrolls.

That is the kind of thing I would love to see on a more definitive price guide, or as a Trader's Guild supplement.

Raven - how about condensing a lot of your initial info into a chart? I'm a visual person and find it easiest to skim things this way. For example:

Rarity	Examples	Ave Value	Notes
Ultra-rare - purple writing	Best weapons and armor	2,000-6,000 gp, $75-$150 on eBay	Value of out of print URs varies widely
Rares - red writing	Magic rings, +1 weapons, good armor	100-500gp	GP value of rares varies a lot
Uncommon - green writing	Mid-range weapons, armor, decent scrolls	10-50 gp	Occasionally the green ink is so dark it looks like a common

Etc.... man, tables are painful in bbcode. Ideally you'd have a photo of each rarity, but your copy cost would grow exponentially. Maybe you could have the downloadable version in color.

Couple more notes -

Do you want to hit on the trade item combos vs. the GenCon only combos? (I'm sure there's a name for this, which escapes me). Cauldron vs. anvil symbols.

Re: trading an UR for rares - you suggest a range of 10-25 rares for an UR. I'd propose 20-25, if not 20-30 would be more fair. I know it depends on the rares (and the UR) - for instance, I doubt anyone would trade 10 PoDDs for a single Elixir of Life, but that is very much an exception.

How about a note on wooden tokens somewhere? Especially if treasure maps/chests come back next year.

Binia - I like the idea of a table! I will see if I can get the hand-out version set up that way (though I agree, it's hard to do for the forum version). I would rather not bother with images of the token rarites, tho... In order for the image to be recognizable, it would have to be almost as large as a token.. and 5 "tokens" on the page would mean I'd have to remove ~3 paragraphs from somewhere.

I think there's enough tokens and images of tokens available around TD for people to find examples if they really want to know what something looks like.