TOPIC: Benrow's Elder Drake Necklace question

Druegar wrote: yes
yes
Benrow's uses B

Can we do a redemption of 2020 Benrows for a 2021 Benrows that does not use Thrown/Returning language and makes it more clear that it doesn’t follow any of the rules for Thrown/Returning?

Michael Ernst wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Druegar wrote: yes
yes
Benrow's uses B

Great.

Please explain:

1. why the text on Benrows was changed during design from:

“May hit ranged target with FoB”

To its final version:

“All FoB weapons may be thrown and gain returning.”


You seem to be saying Benrows allows melee weapons to be thrown, but that they don’t become thrown weapons and/or are not governed by the rules for thrown weapons.

I think having a token that says: “does x,” where x is a keyword ability with Both a rules entry and a tokendb taxonomy, be ruled that it does not do x, but instead does related thing y should be avoided at all costs.

Do we have a list of keyword abilities? I'm trying to follow this discussion, and did not know keywords were a thing.

Keyword is coloquial on my part.

But "thrown" is a taxonomy in TokenDB:

tokendb.com/weapon-attack-mode/thrown/

And has a section in the rules at:

truedungeon.com/files/PHB.pdf

It's on page 32 with it's own subheading of Ranged:

"Thrown

Though thrown weapons are a ranged attack, they're a little different from weapons that mechanically launch a projectile in that a thrown weapon's damage is modified by the thrower's Strength bonus.
..."

Druegar wrote: Matthew, if you can link to the exact posts (not the thread, the specific posts) where either Jeff or I made those statements, I'll take a look.

For those who may not know, the white "#X" in the upper right of each post links directly to that post. Right-clicking on the "#X" should give you the option to copy the link.

OK - I had a chance to look it up, here is the context to Jeff's quoted comment below.

1. Benrow's had undergone 4 revisions with the game text 'may hit Ranged target w/FoB'.

There were dozens of comments from multiple people across these threads understanding this ability as the Gloves of the Flying Fist effect. I can provide links to specific comments if you want.

2. Then, in the last of these 4 revision, several people, including Incognito, specifically requested that the GoFF ability be removed from Benrow's:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=48#347872
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=48#347881
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=60#347950
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=72#348000
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=72#348003

3. Then a new version of Benrow's was created, with the following wording: '...all FoB weapons may be thrown & gain Returning...'

Jeff says of this change:

"Trans Monk's Relic & Legendary - We took out the Gloves of Glory power (many thought it was not good enough to include as is) and we added some new abilities that should work better...and the Legendary should be fun for fans of 70's Chinese martial art films. We took out the granting of PT-5 Psychic Power since most Legendary Monks will have a higher level anyway in a few short years."

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348241

Note: Jeff said 'Gloves of Glory' - but he clearly meant 'Gloves of the Flying Fist' as the Gloves of Glory had had nothing to do with any of the relics or legendaries designed this year. Jeff's statement is a bit confusingly worded, but the intent of:

a. We took out the GoFF effect from the Monk relic/legendary.
b. New abilities that are different from the GoFF effect were added.

Is clear to me.


Players immediately understood and recognized that with this new wording the GoFF ability was gone. They began discussion of how the thrown weapons rules apply and asked for some clarifications on stuff like stunning fist, the number of slideable pucks, etc.:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348243
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348244
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348249
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348253
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=12#348275
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=24#348286
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=24#348292
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=36#348310

After all the above comments, one more set of changes to the 2020 tokens were made. Benrow's was not changed in this final set of changes, which occurred after Jeff explicitly removed GoFF effect, and after much discussion the implications of the GoFF effect no longer being on the token.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Druegar wrote: Matthew, if you can link to the exact posts (not the thread, the specific posts) where either Jeff or I made those statements, I'll take a look.

For those who may not know, the white "#X" in the upper right of each post links directly to that post. Right-clicking on the "#X" should give you the option to copy the link.

OK - I had a chance to look it up, here is the context to Jeff's quoted comment below.

1. Benrow's had undergone 4 revisions with the game text 'may hit Ranged target w/FoB'.

There were dozens of comments from multiple people across these threads understanding this ability as the Gloves of the Flying Fist effect. I can provide links to specific comments if you want.

2. Then, in the last of these 4 revision, several people, including Incognito, specifically requested that the GoFF ability be removed from Benrow's:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=48#347872
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=48#347881
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=60#347950
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=72#348000
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250038&start=72#348003

3. Then a new version of Benrow's was created, with the following wording: '...all FoB weapons may be thrown & gain Returning...'

Jeff says of this change:

"Trans Monk's Relic & Legendary - We took out the Gloves of Glory power (many thought it was not good enough to include as is) and we added some new abilities that should work better...and the Legendary should be fun for fans of 70's Chinese martial art films. We took out the granting of PT-5 Psychic Power since most Legendary Monks will have a higher level anyway in a few short years."

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348241

Note: Jeff said 'Gloves of Glory' - but he clearly meant 'Gloves of the Flying Fist' as the Gloves of Glory had had nothing to do with any of the relics or legendaries designed this year. Jeff's statement is a bit confusingly worded, but the intent of:

a. We took out the GoFF effect from the Monk relic/legendary.
b. New abilities that are different from the GoFF effect were added.

Is clear to me.


Players immediately understood and recognized that with this new wording the GoFF ability was gone. They began discussion of how the thrown weapons rules apply and asked for some clarifications on stuff like stunning fist, the number of slideable pucks, etc.:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348243
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348244
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348249
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=615&id=250061#348253
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=12#348275
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=24#348286
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=24#348292
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=615&id=250061&start=36#348310

After all the above comments, one more set of changes to the 2020 tokens were made. Benrow's was not changed in this final set of changes, which occurred after Jeff explicitly removed GoFF effect, and after much discussion the implications of the GoFF effect no longer being on the token.

Is there an update from TPTB?

TD is at a convention currently. So they're probably fairly busy at the moment with that.

Fiddy wrote: TD is at a convention currently. So they're probably fairly busy at the moment with that.

Derp.... Do they ever sleep? First GHC now Dreamhack!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: TD is at a convention currently. So they're probably fairly busy at the moment with that.

Derp.... Do they ever sleep? First GHC now Dreamhack!

No. No they don’t.

Related consideration. The current official rules for the necklace ( tokendb.com/token/benrows-elder-drake-necklace/ ) do seem to help prevent an awkward gameplay problem. If a DM picks up a +2 Flaming Blade off of the combat board, they can tell if the player hit simply by looking at the party card and adding the player's melee to hit. However, if that weapon may use melee to hit in some situations and ranged to hit in others, how the DM knows which to apply is not obvious (especially if the player has a round-by-round choice). If the rules get changed, hopefully there is a clean way to avoid this.

Michael Ernst wrote: Related consideration. The current official rules for the necklace ( tokendb.com/token/benrows-elder-drake-necklace/ ) do seem to help prevent an awkward gameplay problem. If a DM picks up a +2 Flaming Blade off of the combat board, they can tell if the player hit simply by looking at the party card and adding the player's melee to hit. However, if that weapon may use melee to hit in some situations and ranged to hit in others, how the DM knows which to apply is not obvious (especially if the player has a round-by-round choice). If the rules get changed, hopefully there is a clean way to avoid this.

The small number of players who equip this token would need to just tell the DM whether they are making a thrown attack (ranged to hit and damage) or a melee attack (melee).

This is the case no matter what set of rules are in play - as the DM won’t know the player can evade melee-preventiong effects like flying unless the player tells them.

That makes sense. Is that how it works with GOFF today?

Michael Ernst wrote: That makes sense. Is that how it works with GOFF today?

You can check the tokenDB page: tokendb.com/token/gloves-of-the-flying-fists/

GotFF function kind of like extend-o-fists* allowing for full melee attacks against ranged targets. Melee retribution damage is inflicted.

My interpretation of the current question is:

Will Benrow's behave like

1. GotFF: extend-o-fists using melee to-hit /melee damage in combat calculations and melee retribution damage being inflicted?
2. Thor's: ranged to hit / ranged damage used in combat calculations, melee FoB weapons equip-able in ranged slot and gain "returning". Melee retribution damage is not inflicted.
3. A mixture of ranged and melee numbers for AC to-hit and damage calculations.

I like #2 the best as it is more consistent with the verbiage on the token, and differentiates itself from GotFF with separate perks and drawbacks.

(Assumed) Perks of Benrow's of #2 in comparison to GotFF:

• Melee retribution damage is not inflicted when throwing FoB compatible melee weapons.
• FoB melee weapons will add their AC to-hit modifier to ranged attacks. For example, when a +2 Flaming Blade is equipped in the ranged slot, the Monk's ranged to-hit modifier will increase by +2 when throwing that weapon.
  This is significant as shuriken-throwing monk's ranged to-hit is comparably lower with only access to +1 shurikens (unless they sleaze a Thor's or something in the ranged weapon equip slot).
• Build diversity would expand. Ranged monk builds would be an optional build path with tokens like Gloves of Greater Archery.
• Does not duplicate the effects of, and therefor partially obsoleting, GotFF. A monk could even equip both tokens and potentially choose to use GotFF or throw returning weapons, as the situation demands.
  I say "partially" because we would still likely see use of GotFF in UR monk builds that do not use this legendary.

(Assumed) Drawbacks of Benrow's of #2 in comparison to GotFF:

• Monks would need to worry more about dexterity and ranged stats to perform well in both melee and ranged encounters and would not be able to rely solely on melee stats to deal damage.
• There have been some encounters with "ranged-hosing" (such as projectile blocking) that could come into play.

On a slightly separate note, I would also be disappointed thematically if Benrow's Elder Drake Necklace functioned identically to GotFF. If melee to-hit and melee damage are used, why couldn't the thematic function be "flying like an Elder Drake" in combat to attack ranged targets rather than chucking objects around like Jackie Chan?



^{*I understand that GotFF functions as "tangible clones of these gloves magically launch themselves from the monk’s hands" but since melee retribution damage is inflicted, it makes more sense in my head to picture stretchy arms.}

Philip Goodman wrote: ^{*I understand that GotFF functions as "tangible clones of these gloves magically launch themselves from the monk’s hands" but since melee retribution damage is inflicted, it makes more sense in my head to picture stretchy arms.}

I just assume that the GotFF sever your wrists and launch your actual hands at the monster, then return them and magically heal the severed wrists (but not any retribution damage that was incurred).