Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #13

Endgame wrote: A few thoughts.

BiS for the wizard isn't necessarily best damage for the wizard. You could drop orbits for Earcuff of inspiration, SRoEC for Ring of the Drake, and trade questors for dracolitch (for the slide spells), for example. I'm sure additional damage could be found too with some tweaks.

Second, if the Monk is intended in being the highest damage dealing class, then this isn't specifically a problem when equipping the monk with his class legendary in a format that will enhance the crit range. For a much more realistic token to add to a mostly red monk, put in a Medallion of Valhalla in the neck slot.


I can’t tell from your response.

Do you think it is good that any level 4 class with one legendary, one eldritch relic, and rares out damages another level 5 class with 3 legendaries, 4 edritch, a relic, and 8+ damage boosting URs or not?

That’s the point I’m trying to make here.

I don’t think is is a good/healthy state of affairs for Tokens.

The monk build could also be tweaked for higher damage - it’s not a max damage rare build.

These are actual builds I run in my party, and I noticed my mostly rare monk was out damaging my BiS wizard.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #14

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote: A few thoughts.

BiS for the wizard isn't necessarily best damage for the wizard. You could drop orbits for Earcuff of inspiration, SRoEC for Ring of the Drake, and trade questors for dracolitch (for the slide spells), for example. I'm sure additional damage could be found too with some tweaks.

Second, if the Monk is intended in being the highest damage dealing class, then this isn't specifically a problem when equipping the monk with his class legendary in a format that will enhance the crit range. For a much more realistic token to add to a mostly red monk, put in a Medallion of Valhalla in the neck slot.


I can’t tell from your response.

Do you think it is good that any level 4 class with one legendary, one eldritch relic, and rares out damages another level 5 class with 3 legendaries, 4 edritch, a relic, and 8+ damage boosting URs or not?

That’s the point I’m trying to make here.

I don’t think is is a good/healthy state of affairs for Tokens.

The monk build could also be tweaked for higher damage - it’s not a max damage rare build.

These are actual builds I run in my party, and I noticed my mostly rare monk was out damaging my BiS wizard.

I’m... indifferent (?) to these results for several reasons.

1) I would never expect to see a legendary on a level 4 red build, so the premise is a bit odd to me - I wouldn’t have even tried to fit These tokens together

2) if monk is supposed the be the top damage dealing class, this could very well be working as intended, especially when you pick the single highest damage dealing token for the class.

3) VTD is an outlier in how to hit is managed, and is further complicated by the low ac this time around. I get that there is a formula for AC based on the difficulty, but it might be time to change it. Make the nightmare monsters AC 35 next time around and the monk will do less damage.

4) I know performance based on dollars spent is expected, but the highest cost tokens don’t necessarily mean max damage, Would you like me to suggest a wizard build with similar damage with dramatically less cost?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #15

Endgame wrote: 2) if monk is supposed the be the top damage dealing class, this could very well be working as intended, especially when you pick the single highest damage dealing token for the class.

4) I know performance based on dollars spent is expected, but the highest cost tokens don’t necessarily mean max damage, Would you like me to suggest a wizard build with similar damage with dramatically less cost?


I think that no matter what is supposed to be the top damage dealing class in the game the disparity shown here should NEVER happen.
I've never heard anything said about the monk being intended to be the #1 damage dealer in the game so I'm not sure exactly where that comment is coming from.

As for the suggestion.. that misses the complete point of the entire thread.

The point is not how expensive the Wizard build is. The point is that the Wizard build, at it's highest level of performance, with every single boost at hand, and sacrificing 70+ in HPs.

Is outdamaged by a character equipped in MOSTLY rare tokens.

Roll a few of those tokens up to Ultra rare and it destroys the damage capabilities of the Wizard.

Run the Monk's best in slot damage build against the Wizards?

The Monk AT LEAST doubles the Wizard over 7 combat rounds. Every round beyond that the gap grows higher.

Because WITHOUT USING A FINITE RESOURCE (spells) the Monk can double or triple the damage output of the Wizard on a round for round basis. Without critting. Against the strongest spells the Wizard can cast.

There is literally no way to state things more clearly. The Monk is not simply stronger than the Wizard. The Monk is more than DOUBLE the strength of the Wizard. Even allowing for a 40% failure rate for sliding attacks.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #16

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:
I can’t tell from your response.

Do you think it is good that any level 4 class with one legendary, one eldritch relic, and rares out damages another level 5 class with 3 legendaries, 4 edritch, a relic, and 8+ damage boosting URs or not?

That’s the point I’m trying to make here.

I don’t think is is a good/healthy state of affairs for Tokens.

I’m... indifferent (?) to these results for several reasons.

1) I would never expect to see a legendary on a level 4 red build, so the premise is a bit odd to me - I wouldn’t have even tried to fit These tokens together

2) if monk is supposed the be the top damage dealing class, this could very well be working as intended, especially when you pick the single highest damage dealing token for the class.

3) VTD is an outlier in how to hit is managed, and is further complicated by the low ac this time around. I get that there is a formula for AC based on the difficulty, but it might be time to change it. Make the nightmare monsters AC 35 next time around and the monk will do less damage.

4) I know performance based on dollars spent is expected, but the highest cost tokens don’t necessarily mean max damage, Would you like me to suggest a wizard build with similar damage with dramatically less cost?


Then we have very different basic assumptions / beliefs about how tokens should work in TD.

I do not think it is reasonable that for two classes, in a game where dealing damage is a critical element, and improved damage progression is granted through increasing tiers to token rarity, and increased character levels, that it is good/healthy/reasonable that:

1. Given two damage focused classes: A and B.
2. Equipping a level 4 A with ~10 Rare tier tokens and 2 high tier tokens.
3. Equipping a level 5 B with ~10 Ultra Rare tokens and 8 higher tier tokens.

That A outdamages B when both builds are oriented at dealing lots of damage.


I would also add that of your reasons #2 above can be extended to explain any differences. If a naked monk with bare fists happened out out damage a BiS wizard one could just say "If monk is supposed to be top damage dealing class, this could be very well working as intended."

It could be that's working as intended - but for me, if that's what is intended, then chasing tokens is not something I'm going to be interested in. It would not be fun anymore to chase BiS builds when the design intent is that Monks outdamage my class even under such a massive disparity in tokens.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #17

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:
I can’t tell from your response.

Do you think it is good that any level 4 class with one legendary, one eldritch relic, and rares out damages another level 5 class with 3 legendaries, 4 edritch, a relic, and 8+ damage boosting URs or not?

That’s the point I’m trying to make here.

I don’t think is is a good/healthy state of affairs for Tokens.

I’m... indifferent (?) to these results for several reasons.

1) I would never expect to see a legendary on a level 4 red build, so the premise is a bit odd to me - I wouldn’t have even tried to fit These tokens together

2) if monk is supposed the be the top damage dealing class, this could very well be working as intended, especially when you pick the single highest damage dealing token for the class.

3) VTD is an outlier in how to hit is managed, and is further complicated by the low ac this time around. I get that there is a formula for AC based on the difficulty, but it might be time to change it. Make the nightmare monsters AC 35 next time around and the monk will do less damage.

4) I know performance based on dollars spent is expected, but the highest cost tokens don’t necessarily mean max damage, Would you like me to suggest a wizard build with similar damage with dramatically less cost?


Then we have very different basic assumptions / beliefs about how tokens should work in TD.

I do not think it is reasonable that for two classes, in a game where dealing damage is a critical element, and improved damage progression is granted through increasing tiers to token rarity, and increased character levels, that it is good/healthy/reasonable that:

1. Given two damage focused classes: A and B.
2. Equipping a level 4 A with ~10 Rare tier tokens and 2 high tier tokens.
3. Equipping a level 5 B with ~10 Ultra Rare tokens and 8 higher tier tokens.

That A outdamages B when both builds are oriented at dealing lots of damage.


I would also add that of your reasons #2 above can be extended to explain any differences. If a naked monk with bare fists happened out out damage a BiS wizard one could just say "If monk is supposed to be top damage dealing class, this could be very well working as intended."

It could be that's working as intended - but for me, if that's what is intended, then chasing tokens is not something I'm going to be interested in. It would not be fun anymore to chase BiS builds when the design intent is that Monks outdamage my class even under such a massive disparity in tokens.

You’re neglecting that your BIS build has significantly better saves, nearly double the HP, is dramatically better attacking flying creatures, etc.

My first pass at wizard without using legendaries or eldrich uses 2 relics and 11 ultra rares to hit +29 spell damage And uses a ring of spell storing to juice one round and uses the arcane set for a free spell. It’s more URs than your monk, but a legendary has to be worth at least 10 URs in a build. ITs also nearly the same offense as your BIS wizard. The BIS tokens are often adding durability over pure offense.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #18

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote:
I can’t tell from your response.

Do you think it is good that any level 4 class with one legendary, one eldritch relic, and rares out damages another level 5 class with 3 legendaries, 4 edritch, a relic, and 8+ damage boosting URs or not?

That’s the point I’m trying to make here.

I don’t think is is a good/healthy state of affairs for Tokens.

I’m... indifferent (?) to these results for several reasons.

1) I would never expect to see a legendary on a level 4 red build, so the premise is a bit odd to me - I wouldn’t have even tried to fit These tokens together

2) if monk is supposed the be the top damage dealing class, this could very well be working as intended, especially when you pick the single highest damage dealing token for the class.

3) VTD is an outlier in how to hit is managed, and is further complicated by the low ac this time around. I get that there is a formula for AC based on the difficulty, but it might be time to change it. Make the nightmare monsters AC 35 next time around and the monk will do less damage.

4) I know performance based on dollars spent is expected, but the highest cost tokens don’t necessarily mean max damage, Would you like me to suggest a wizard build with similar damage with dramatically less cost?


Then we have very different basic assumptions / beliefs about how tokens should work in TD.

I do not think it is reasonable that for two classes, in a game where dealing damage is a critical element, and improved damage progression is granted through increasing tiers to token rarity, and increased character levels, that it is good/healthy/reasonable that:

1. Given two damage focused classes: A and B.
2. Equipping a level 4 A with ~10 Rare tier tokens and 2 high tier tokens.
3. Equipping a level 5 B with ~10 Ultra Rare tokens and 8 higher tier tokens.

That A outdamages B when both builds are oriented at dealing lots of damage.


I would also add that of your reasons #2 above can be extended to explain any differences. If a naked monk with bare fists happened out out damage a BiS wizard one could just say "If monk is supposed to be top damage dealing class, this could be very well working as intended."

It could be that's working as intended - but for me, if that's what is intended, then chasing tokens is not something I'm going to be interested in. It would not be fun anymore to chase BiS builds when the design intent is that Monks outdamage my class even under such a massive disparity in tokens.

You’re neglecting that your BIS build has significantly better saves, nearly double the HP, is dramatically better attacking flying creatures, etc.

My first pass at wizard without using legendaries or eldrich uses 2 relics and 11 ultra rares to hit +29 spell damage And uses a ring of spell storing to juice one round and uses the arcane set for a free spell. It’s more URs than your monk, but a legendary has to be worth at least 10 URs in a build. ITs also nearly the same offense as your BIS wizard. The BIS tokens are often adding durability over pure offense.


I'm not sure what you'd say I'm neglecting the saves. I'm not. It's not relevant to my point.

I'm saying: I don't think it's healthy or good that a BiS Wizard is outdamaged by a red monk with 2 top tier tokens.

You don't agree.

I'm going to leave it there.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #19

First question:
Why didn't you add the wand damage per round? You have two UR's (MoMM, ISFC) dedicated to wand usage that add 11-12 damage per round if you are a human wizard. That's quite a bit of damage (77-84) to leave out of the analysis.

What is the main point of this thread? I can draw several arguments, but is it:
  • Nerf monks?
  • Buff Wizards?
  • 1d10+10 is an inaccurate system?
  • Putting a class legendary on a rare character is lol?
  • Wizard legendary should be amazing?
  • Anything about any other classes?

I agree with all of these points, to a certain degree.

Nerfing monks:
I have yet to see a reasonable and elegant way to do it from a mechanical standpoint. I have seen arguments to remove melee damage bonus from monk's 2nd hit and I absolutely hate the idea. Like quitting TD hate it.

I'd like to see something like 2-handed weapons getting an increased bonus from strength. Something like +1/+2 for to-hit/damage from 2 points of strength instead of +1/+1.

Reducing defenses and making defenses more relevant in encounters for token selection would be a valid point, but the fragility of a class would get largely ignored by the "BiS" damage potentials.

From a token design standpoint, we could limit the spread of melee damage bonuses, but does not seem to be happening (I'm looking at you Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid and Ioun Stone Jasper Prism ).

Buff Wizards:
I definitely don't argue with this in general. My thoughts:
Mechanically, lvl 5 class card should get an additional cast of lightning storm and fireball. I could also see an implementation of a recharging 1 cast/combat on one or more of the other level 1-2 level spells. The level 0 spells could just be spam-able cantrips.
There are slots that have little to no caster-boosting tokens which could be filled. Currently, a lot of wizards are stacking HP and defenses in lieu of having any other damage option tokens.
Wands and scrolls should be stronger in general.

1d10+10 is an inaccurate system:
For VTD there could be a weighted die roll for dual-sliding classes, as dual sliding is (and should be) more difficult.
I don't expect to be able get double 20s when playing my monk (a single 20 is rare enough for me in real life), so it's pretty jarring when I see myself or the ranger in the party get a "double crit". I could easily see a "only one puck can crit" mechanic.

Putting a class legendary on a rare character is lol:

Isn't it?

A monk with 1 legendary, 1 eldricth relic, and rares outdamages a Wizard with 3 legendaries, 4 Eldrtich relics, 1 relic, ~8 URs.


I do not dispute the argument behind this point, in general, but you listed a lot of tokens on the wizard (1 legendary, 3 eldritch, several URs) that are not contributing to damage in this comparison. It also sounds like the wizard is way more durable than the monk.

Wizard legendary should be amazing?
Yeah, sure. Should be about as strong as the other legendary class items. Not significantly more. Barrier to entry on building a decent is wizard is high enough without locking a disproportionately high amount of power behind a legendary in effort to balance a class.
I've said this before, but overbalancing the wizard legendary will likely lead to less favorable class changes on class balancing passes. The argument to add/implement cantrips, additional spell uses, etc., which I would like to see, is going to lose weight if the legendary ends up saying +20 spell damage with additional perks.

Anything about any other classes?
Another comparison to a class-legendary rare barbarian is silly strong too, and I'm sure it is up there as well with the extra rage and 2 free auto-crits:
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/37448989-86c6-4110-91a9-bca4e19681e0
I'm iffy on the math since I don't know if the auto-crits become triple/quad crits if they land on a natural 20 or not.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Philip Goodman.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #20

A quick note on scrolls from Phillips post. I agree they need to be improved, but would say they need to scale by difficulty in some way. We don’t want a scroll doing 30 damage on normal.

Perhaps a UR that lets spell damage bonus apply to scrolls would be the best approach?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #21

  • bpsymington
  • bpsymington's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 11th Level
  • Supporter
  • Follow me on Instagram @runningboardgamer
  • Posts: 15917
Rats - I just realized I forgot to use my RoSS to full affect. I used it to cast fireball/lightning storm w/o marking it off the card, but forgot to use it asa free action, so I didn't cast a regular spell!
Follow me on Instagram @runningboardgamer

Awesome avatar by Mauve Shirt!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #22

Speaking as a melee-type, I agree Wizards are under-powered, particularly in VTD.

It's a complex issue, but here are a few changes that might be good:

1. Higher monster AC in VTD vs. TD, to account for the elimination of "slide error."

2. Bigger bonuses to Wizard spells from correctly doing the skill test. So as not to change the "normal" game too much, the bonuses could be increased on the 5th level card. This would also help making there be a point to the skill test mechanic at higher levels, which is often just skipped for time.

I am not saying these changes would be "enough" or would be a "solution," but that they might be good starting points.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Daniel White.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #23

Daniel White wrote: Speaking as a melee-type, I agree Wizards are under-powered, particularly in VTD.

It's a complex issue, but here are a few changes that might be good:

1. Higher monster AC in VTD vs. TD, to account for the elimination of "slide error."

2. Bigger bonuses to Wizard spells from correctly doing the skill test. So as not to change the "normal" game too much, the bonuses could be increased on the 5th level card. This would also help making there be a point to the skill test mechanic at higher levels, which is often just skipped for time.

I am not saying these changes would be "enough" or would be a "solution," but that they might be good starting points.


Unfortunately I do not think the issue is related to VTD. I think it's a bit more visible there.

The issue is purely related to the damage discrepancy between the Wizard Class and other pure DPS classes. The wizard quite frankly can not stand their own with any other DPS class.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #24

Make the Wizard skill test based on int modifier. Scales with gear, more int tokens can be created, adds a reason to take the tests

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.097 seconds