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TOPIC: Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #25

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Speaking as a melee-type, I agree Wizards are under-powered, particularly in VTD.

It's a complex issue, but here are a few changes that might be good:

1. Higher monster AC in VTD vs. TD, to account for the elimination of "slide error."

2. Bigger bonuses to Wizard spells from correctly doing the skill test. So as not to change the "normal" game too much, the bonuses could be increased on the 5th level card. This would also help making there be a point to the skill test mechanic at higher levels, which is often just skipped for time.

I am not saying these changes would be "enough" or would be a "solution," but that they might be good starting points.


Unfortunately I do not think the issue is related to VTD. I think it's a bit more visible there.

The issue is purely related to the damage discrepancy between the Wizard Class and other pure DPS classes. The wizard quite frankly can not stand their own with any other DPS class.

Wouldn’t doubling the monster AC make wizard the top damage dealer? Or contriving situations where melee is impossible? Perhaps this is more a monster design problem than a wizard problem?

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #26

The analysis isn’t sound. A legendary on that Monk build makes it a legendary build. Period. That item costs well more than $1,000. The wizard is also under-built to the tune of about 200 damage per run. A true rare monk build will be in the 300 damage area whereas a wizard will be around 500. It’s not close.

Second, wizards have abilities that monks don’t have. They attack at range and up-close and attack multiple opponents as well as have battlefield control (esp lesser maze.)

Is the argument that wizards should be the most damage? I don’t see why that would be necessary. Bards could make the same argument.

The reality is that each class has a role. The monk’s role (as well as barb and fighter ) are pure damage. Bards buff, clerics heal, druids do a bit of everything, rogues have a couple good attacks then rogue box, fighter taunts and has a massive crit potential, rangers are jacks f all trades with a combat focus. Elf wizard bluff plus damage, etc..

Wizards are more expensive to build than most classes but have capabilities most don’t have as well.

We already have a power creep problem where the same nightmare group may have someone doing 30 damage and someone doing 100+ each round. Increasing damage further doesn’t help.

If anything, we need to figure out how to adjust runs to party power levels more effectively.

Fred
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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #27

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Speaking as a melee-type, I agree Wizards are under-powered, particularly in VTD.

It's a complex issue, but here are a few changes that might be good:

1. Higher monster AC in VTD vs. TD, to account for the elimination of "slide error."

2. Bigger bonuses to Wizard spells from correctly doing the skill test. So as not to change the "normal" game too much, the bonuses could be increased on the 5th level card. This would also help making there be a point to the skill test mechanic at higher levels, which is often just skipped for time.

I am not saying these changes would be "enough" or would be a "solution," but that they might be good starting points.


Unfortunately I do not think the issue is related to VTD. I think it's a bit more visible there.

The issue is purely related to the damage discrepancy between the Wizard Class and other pure DPS classes. The wizard quite frankly can not stand their own with any other DPS class.

Wouldn’t doubling the monster AC make wizard the top damage dealer? Or contriving situations where melee is impossible? Perhaps this is more a monster design problem than a wizard problem?


@Kolixela: If you read carefully, you'll see I said "particularly in VTD." I don't disagree with you that the issue is an overall one, and just worse than normal in VTD. As the post says, these suggestions are intended as a starting point, not an ending one.

@Endgame: "Higher" AC is not "double" AC. I'm not sure where that came from. I am by no means suggesting "doubling" monster AC.

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Last edit: by Daniel White.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #28

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Speaking as a melee-type, I agree Wizards are under-powered, particularly in VTD.

It's a complex issue, but here are a few changes that might be good:

1. Higher monster AC in VTD vs. TD, to account for the elimination of "slide error."

2. Bigger bonuses to Wizard spells from correctly doing the skill test. So as not to change the "normal" game too much, the bonuses could be increased on the 5th level card. This would also help making there be a point to the skill test mechanic at higher levels, which is often just skipped for time.

I am not saying these changes would be "enough" or would be a "solution," but that they might be good starting points.


Unfortunately I do not think the issue is related to VTD. I think it's a bit more visible there.

The issue is purely related to the damage discrepancy between the Wizard Class and other pure DPS classes. The wizard quite frankly can not stand their own with any other DPS class.

Wouldn’t doubling the monster AC make wizard the top damage dealer? Or contriving situations where melee is impossible? Perhaps this is more a monster design problem than a wizard problem?


@Kolixela: If you read carefully, you'll see I said "particularly in VTD." I don't disagree with you that the issue is an overall one, and just worse than normal in VTD. As the post says, these suggestions are intended as a starting point, not an ending one.

@Endgame: "Higher" AC is not "double" AC. I'm not sure where that came from. I am by no means suggesting "doubling" monster AC.

The point is, the wizard doesn’t Need a single extra spell damage buff to become the highest damage dealer. Double Normal AC Is an example of what would do that. It would still allow melee classes to hit on something other than a 20, but it would cut their damage down considerably.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #29

Yes, it's true that balance could be adjusted entirely through monster design changes. However, that could have some serious unintended consequences for low-to-hit classes like Cleric or Bard, when they swing at a target.

My view is that a combination of monster design and Wizard design changes is the best approach.

I am also not advocating for Wizard to be "top damage dealer" in all scenarios. I do think it'd be good if they were more competitive at high levels though.

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Last edit: by Daniel White.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #30

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Not knowing the exact build we are referencing for a wizard, but I have been casting a spell for large/max damage and throwing in a scroll with lenses of sage speed or wand with mystic mouth for extra as a free action. Granted i'm not up to a MEC yet, but this routine served me well this last weekend, and I would assume, that when I reach Goth Wizard stage, it will put me on level with crits from some of the other character classes.

My 2 cents

Spud :evil:
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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #31

Philip Goodman wrote: First question:
Why didn't you add the wand damage per round? You have two UR's (MoMM, ISFC) dedicated to wand usage that add 11-12 damage per round if you are a human wizard. That's quite a bit of damage (77-84) to leave out of the analysis.

What is the main point of this thread? I can draw several arguments, but is it:

  • Nerf monks?
  • Buff Wizards?
  • 1d10+10 is an inaccurate system?
  • Putting a class legendary on a rare character is lol?
  • Wizard legendary should be amazing?
  • Anything about any other classes?


I didn't add wand damage because I never add consumables in when doing damage calculations, as not everyone has the desire or ability to use them. If we were to consider consumables, one could easily adjust things around by doing something like: Drop Kilt of Dungeonbane, Add Pants of the Oaf, Add Pouch of Tulz, drink Bull's Strength and use melee Runestones to add +1/+2 to all the Monk stuff while downgrading an Eltritch token for a UR.

But such fine tuning is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make in this thread.

The main point of this thread is:

Premise 1:
Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards
And considering two builds which are both focusing on damage output.

* One of which, call it "Type A", has rares and 2 high tier tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 4

* One of which, call it "Type B", has ~7 Legendary or Eldritch, ~1 Relic, and ~8 URs tokens focues on damage and is playing at level 5

It not a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation if a character of Type A has similar or greater damage output than a character of Type B.

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.

Conclusion:
In VTD, it is not currently a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation.

As to what should be done about it - many things could be done about it.

But one would only be motivated to do anything if they agreed with Premise 1 and Premise 2 - and further if they want the token situation to be good/desirable/long term healthy.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #32

Spud wrote: Not knowing the exact build we are referencing for a wizard, but I have been casting a spell for large/max damage and throwing in a scroll with lenses of sage speed or wand with mystic mouth for extra as a free action. Granted i'm not up to a MEC yet, but this routine served me well this last weekend, and I would assume, that when I reach Goth Wizard stage, it will put me on level with crits from some of the other character classes.

My 2 cents

Spud :evil:


Unfortunately the limitations of the Mad Evokers Charm make that not true.

1 - it only boosts PRINTED damage, not bonus so at highest you are looking at +20 damage for MEC.
2 - it is not usable more than 1 time per round, so that negates a higher bonus with Cabal or RoSS

Highest I've seen damage wise on a Wizard is about +40

Fireball 20 + MEC 20 + spell damage 40 + RoSS searing ray 18 + 40 =138

Monks Rangers and Barbarians can hit that on crit rounds.
My party monk who has 2 eldritch 1 relic no legendaries and approx 10 UR hits on average for 75 per round 150ish if double crit

Ultimately it's just not mathematically possible for the Wizard to compete with the damage output of the Monk/Ranger/Barbarian. Fairly certain the Rogue now beats us at Legendary neck if not relic.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #33

Fred K wrote: The analysis isn’t sound. A legendary on that Monk build makes it a legendary build. Period. That item costs well more than $1,000. The wizard is also under-built to the tune of about 200 damage per run. A true rare monk build will be in the 300 damage area whereas a wizard will be around 500. It’s not close.

Second, wizards have abilities that monks don’t have. They attack at range and up-close and attack multiple opponents as well as have battlefield control (esp lesser maze.)

Is the argument that wizards should be the most damage? I don’t see why that would be necessary. Bards could make the same argument.

The reality is that each class has a role. The monk’s role (as well as barb and fighter ) are pure damage. Bards buff, clerics heal, druids do a bit of everything, rogues have a couple good attacks then rogue box, fighter taunts and has a massive crit potential, rangers are jacks f all trades with a combat focus. Elf wizard bluff plus damage, etc..

Wizards are more expensive to build than most classes but have capabilities most don’t have as well.

We already have a power creep problem where the same nightmare group may have someone doing 30 damage and someone doing 100+ each round. Increasing damage further doesn’t help.

If anything, we need to figure out how to adjust runs to party power levels more effectively.

Fred



Do you agree or disagree with this premise:

--
Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards
And considering two builds which are both focusing on damage output.

* One of which, call it "Type A", has rares and 2 high tier tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 4

* One of which, call it "Type B", has ~7 Legendary or Eldritch, ~1 Relic, and ~8 URs tokens focues on damage and is playing at level 5

It not a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation if a character of Type A has similar or greater damage output than a character of Type B.
--

Personally, I agree with the above premise.


All I'm trying to establish in this thread is that the state of affairs with regard to a Type A build having similar or greater damage output than a Type B build are occurring in VTD, and to learn if other players agree or disagree with the premise above - and perhaps some of the reasons why.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #34

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: The analysis isn’t sound. A legendary on that Monk build makes it a legendary build. Period. That item costs well more than $1,000. The wizard is also under-built to the tune of about 200 damage per run. A true rare monk build will be in the 300 damage area whereas a wizard will be around 500. It’s not close.

Second, wizards have abilities that monks don’t have. They attack at range and up-close and attack multiple opponents as well as have battlefield control (esp lesser maze.)

Is the argument that wizards should be the most damage? I don’t see why that would be necessary. Bards could make the same argument.

The reality is that each class has a role. The monk’s role (as well as barb and fighter ) are pure damage. Bards buff, clerics heal, druids do a bit of everything, rogues have a couple good attacks then rogue box, fighter taunts and has a massive crit potential, rangers are jacks f all trades with a combat focus. Elf wizard bluff plus damage, etc..

Wizards are more expensive to build than most classes but have capabilities most don’t have as well.

We already have a power creep problem where the same nightmare group may have someone doing 30 damage and someone doing 100+ each round. Increasing damage further doesn’t help.

If anything, we need to figure out how to adjust runs to party power levels more effectively.

Fred


Your desire to call "red monk with Benrow's and KoDB" a "legendary build" is irrelevant semantics.

Please demonstrate your assertion that a properly geared Wizard will deal over 500 damage in 7 rounds by positing a build and explaining what actions will be taken. As you do so note if you are allowing the Wizard build options and resources your are not allowing the Monk build (e.g. consumables). Please extend your analysis over 12 rounds as well for both classes.



Do you agree or disagree with this statement:

"It is not a good/desirable/healthy state of affairs for tokens when one damaged focused class equipped with several rare and 2 high tier damage focused tokens has similar or greater damage output of a second damage focused class with 7 legendary/eldrtich, 1 relic, and 8 UR damaged focused tokens."

I agree with this statement.

Damage isn’t the only factor though. SRoEC and greater holly ring add the same amount of melee damage, and yet the SRoEC is a much better token.

Measure fairly

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #35

Spud wrote: Not knowing the exact build we are referencing for a wizard, but I have been casting a spell for large/max damage and throwing in a scroll with lenses of sage speed or wand with mystic mouth for extra as a free action. Granted i'm not up to a MEC yet, but this routine served me well this last weekend, and I would assume, that when I reach Goth Wizard stage, it will put me on level with crits from some of the other character classes.

My 2 cents

Spud :evil:


You can't use Lenses of Sage Speed to cast a scroll as a free action and cast a normal spell as a free action.

LoSS is all or nothing - you get 2 scrolls for a standard + a free, or you don't use them.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #36

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: The analysis isn’t sound. A legendary on that Monk build makes it a legendary build. Period. That item costs well more than $1,000. The wizard is also under-built to the tune of about 200 damage per run. A true rare monk build will be in the 300 damage area whereas a wizard will be around 500. It’s not close.

Second, wizards have abilities that monks don’t have. They attack at range and up-close and attack multiple opponents as well as have battlefield control (esp lesser maze.)

Is the argument that wizards should be the most damage? I don’t see why that would be necessary. Bards could make the same argument.

The reality is that each class has a role. The monk’s role (as well as barb and fighter ) are pure damage. Bards buff, clerics heal, druids do a bit of everything, rogues have a couple good attacks then rogue box, fighter taunts and has a massive crit potential, rangers are jacks f all trades with a combat focus. Elf wizard bluff plus damage, etc..

Wizards are more expensive to build than most classes but have capabilities most don’t have as well.

We already have a power creep problem where the same nightmare group may have someone doing 30 damage and someone doing 100+ each round. Increasing damage further doesn’t help.

If anything, we need to figure out how to adjust runs to party power levels more effectively.

Fred


Your desire to call "red monk with Benrow's and KoDB" a "legendary build" is irrelevant semantics.

Please demonstrate your assertion that a properly geared Wizard will deal over 500 damage in 7 rounds by positing a build and explaining what actions will be taken. As you do so note if you are allowing the Wizard build options and resources your are not allowing the Monk build (e.g. consumables). Please extend your analysis over 12 rounds as well for both classes.



Do you agree or disagree with this statement:

"It is not a good/desirable/healthy state of affairs for tokens when one damaged focused class equipped with several rare and 2 high tier damage focused tokens has similar or greater damage output of a second damage focused class with 7 legendary/eldrtich, 1 relic, and 8 UR damaged focused tokens."

I agree with this statement.

Damage isn’t the only factor though. SRoEC and greater holly ring add the same amount of melee damage, and yet the SRoEC is a much better token.

Measure fairly


Surely damage is the only factor with regard to evaluating damage. Which is what this thread is about (or at least what it started out about, and what I'm talking about).

I don't understand your comment on fair measurement. Can you please indicate what measure I have made that is unfair, and what about the measure makes you think it is not fair, and what a fair measure of the same entity would be?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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