TOPIC: Should Ring of Spell Storing be nerfed?

I don't think it is breaking the game, and I don't think it will.

If we were to start to limit this type of item, we should probably also limit to-hit and damage bonuses as well.

All RoSS does is close the gap to the melee classes. If going to nerf it, then doing nothing to restore any semblance of balance to the game, just make spellcasters weaker relative to other classes.

There's a reason that CCGs reset the card pool. They become unmanageable over time. With TD, not only is there a constant push to getting more out of existing slots, but there's a constant push to add slots and expand slots.

I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

For me the RoSS works out like a physical attack criting. Once a game is not going to break it.

Reuse of powers/spells more than once per game need to be carefully thought about. Similar to how one needs to carefully think about free actions.

One here and there does not break anything.

If you feel once a game breaks things then you need to add in the cleric legendary into the discussion since it allows an additional use above the once per game defined on the character card.

Just noticed this thread. Ring slot is crowded, but my response is an enthusiastic no.

I'm in the no camp. Not only is the ring slot crowded as is, which multiple other people have already mentioned, I think the RoSS works great for wizard players that are hanging out in that middle ground between casual and veteran player.

For less powerful wizard builds it provides a fun way for them to boost their damage once per game. For lower level builds, the ring can help them feel more included in (usually) the final combat, without completely obliterating the boss.

For higher level builds, as it's been stated, the player has to weigh the options of having it along over some of the other options.

Ian Lee wrote: I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

This is the correct level of analysis.

If you were to go back to the 2021 token design threads, you'll see nothing but people complaining about how wizard doesn't do enough damage. The end result was an increase of damage output to wizard classes. Now it's omg wizard too much damage! Fighter sucks now!

This game doesn't live in the right now forever. It's fluid and always evolving. We have the tokens for 2021. It's time to adapt builds and be ready for the 2021 season. Once we get a bunch of runs with new 2021 builds, I'm sure TPTB will make the appropriate changes.

Leitz wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

This is the correct level of analysis.

If you were to go back to the 2021 token design threads, you'll see nothing but people complaining about how wizard doesn't do enough damage. The end result was an increase of damage output to wizard classes. Now it's omg wizard too much damage! Fighter sucks now!

This game doesn't live in the right now forever. It's fluid and always evolving. We have the tokens for 2021. It's time to adapt builds and be ready for the 2021 season. Once we get a bunch of runs with new 2021 builds, I'm sure TPTB will make the appropriate changes.

Not all of us were complaining that the Wizards didn't do enough damage, but I'm sure that was the majority of inputs that Jeff got. It's still probably the majority of inputs Jeff gets even after this.

Ian Lee wrote: All RoSS does is close the gap to the melee classes. If going to nerf it, then doing nothing to restore any semblance of balance to the game, just make spellcasters weaker relative to other classes.

There's a reason that CCGs reset the card pool. They become unmanageable over time. With TD, not only is there a constant push to getting more out of existing slots, but there's a constant push to add slots and expand slots.

I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

Good points Ian.

Ian Lee wrote: There's a reason that CCGs reset the card pool. They become unmanageable over time. With TD, not only is there a constant push to getting more out of existing slots, but there's a constant push to add slots and expand slots.

It doesn't need to be like this. You bookend each rarity, lock the number of slots, and stay within the parameters of your book ends.

Ex:
No armor combination shall have a higher AC at rare than Defenders. No combination of Head, Torso, and Shield shall exceed +5 damage. No rare ring shall surpass +3 melee damage for 2H weapons, and no rare ring shall surpass +1 melee damage for 1H weapons. And so on.

Once you've bookended everything, you build within the existing design space. Furthermore you create a design goal / principal, and probably even print it right on the player cards. Ex:

You are a Barbarian. You Serve the role of a primary party damage dealer, only to be exceeded by the squishy wizard and the nimble monk, presuming said monk can regularly land his flurry of blows.

Or

You are a Fighter. You lack the raw power of the wizard or the Barbarian, leaving you at best a middling damage dealer, but what you lack in raw strength, you make up for in weapon skill. Of all the weapon sliders, you are most likely to land your blows, so consider sliding after everyone else to not only bump their pucks to better positions, but to still and blows yourself.

As time goes by, you slowly replace the percentage of new tokens with reprints at each level to account for lack of access to token XY and Z due to growth.

Sorry for the thread-jack, but there is no need to retire things or put players on an endless spend cycle token wise.

Mike Steele wrote:

Leitz wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

This is the correct level of analysis.

If you were to go back to the 2021 token design threads, you'll see nothing but people complaining about how wizard doesn't do enough damage. The end result was an increase of damage output to wizard classes. Now it's omg wizard too much damage! Fighter sucks now!

This game doesn't live in the right now forever. It's fluid and always evolving. We have the tokens for 2021. It's time to adapt builds and be ready for the 2021 season. Once we get a bunch of runs with new 2021 builds, I'm sure TPTB will make the appropriate changes.

Not all of us were complaining that the Wizards didn't do enough damage, but I'm sure that was the majority of inputs that Jeff got. It's still probably the majority of inputs Jeff gets even after this.

Yeah, totally. During the design process wizard players and sympathizers were really vocal about wizard needing major power boost. Opposite opinions weren't represented as loudly.

Now that the vocal wizard players mostly got their way we have the counter threads.

I don't see much guidance of what classes should be where in terms of damage and other abilities. So the token design process felt like a free for all with every player trying to get the most value for their favorite character.

Maybe for next year's token design process we can start to set up some framework to operate in and agree on it before the tokens are revealed.

Leitz wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Leitz wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

This is the correct level of analysis.

If you were to go back to the 2021 token design threads, you'll see nothing but people complaining about how wizard doesn't do enough damage. The end result was an increase of damage output to wizard classes. Now it's omg wizard too much damage! Fighter sucks now!

This game doesn't live in the right now forever. It's fluid and always evolving. We have the tokens for 2021. It's time to adapt builds and be ready for the 2021 season. Once we get a bunch of runs with new 2021 builds, I'm sure TPTB will make the appropriate changes.

Not all of us were complaining that the Wizards didn't do enough damage, but I'm sure that was the majority of inputs that Jeff got. It's still probably the majority of inputs Jeff gets even after this.

Yeah, totally. During the design process wizard players and sympathizers were really vocal about wizard needing major power boost. Opposite opinions weren't represented as loudly.

Now that the vocal wizard players mostly got their way we have the counter threads.

I don't see much guidance of what classes should be where in terms of damage and other abilities. So the token design process felt like a free for all with every player trying to get the most value for their favorite character.

Maybe for next year's token design process we can start to set up some framework to operate in and agree on it before the tokens are revealed.

So what I am hearing is the druid legendary needs a rework

Leitz wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Leitz wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: I see the real nerfing in the game needing to be the screaming for "my class needs to not be 5th in the max damage rankings" as that's what has increasingly broken the game. But, it's been working so far, so maybe the best nerfing is just ignoring the damage output discrepancies and playing the game the way the game makes things fun for you.

Ultimately, as a coop game, the game is really more of a social/discovery endeavor than anything else, even if some players care more about winning than anything else, whatever winning means to them.

This is the correct level of analysis.

If you were to go back to the 2021 token design threads, you'll see nothing but people complaining about how wizard doesn't do enough damage. The end result was an increase of damage output to wizard classes. Now it's omg wizard too much damage! Fighter sucks now!

This game doesn't live in the right now forever. It's fluid and always evolving. We have the tokens for 2021. It's time to adapt builds and be ready for the 2021 season. Once we get a bunch of runs with new 2021 builds, I'm sure TPTB will make the appropriate changes.

Not all of us were complaining that the Wizards didn't do enough damage, but I'm sure that was the majority of inputs that Jeff got. It's still probably the majority of inputs Jeff gets even after this.

Yeah, totally. During the design process wizard players and sympathizers were really vocal about wizard needing major power boost. Opposite opinions weren't represented as loudly.

Now that the vocal wizard players mostly got their way we have the counter threads.

I don't see much guidance of what classes should be where in terms of damage and other abilities. So the token design process felt like a free for all with every player trying to get the most value for their favorite character.

Maybe for next year's token design process we can start to set up some framework to operate in and agree on it before the tokens are revealed.

With the future token dev not having class relics I would think the heated argument won’t be as bad but I may be wrong.