TOPIC: FINAL Big Change to Powers Available on the Mark of Enlightenment

Impy wrote:

Dave wrote:

Impy wrote:

Dave wrote: The only thing about the Ear Slot Expander is that the slots it expands all have caps. So, it really doesn't do a whole lot in the way of power creep. Flexibility, definitely yes, which I think is a good thing. Maybe down the road it will lead to a bigger gain, but right now you won't get +5 melee or ranged damage from the slot expander.

I'd argue you can already. If you add back in the arcane earcuff you would just need add 1 of (charm of winter, charm of summer, bifrost charm) and then any charm like "charm of targeting" to hit +5 ranged damage.

Rings you just need ring of the Yeti and Ring of Roaring. I could likely find more.

But in short, I think the expander already rivals or exceeds the other options.

I'd argue you're already equipping Bifrost and probably Summer or Winter. This is going to be like your 8th thru 10th best Charms or 7th thru 9th best Ioun Stones. Honestly, this is the only option that in my mind comes close to me not picking +5 melee or +5 ranged damage. Only 85-90 people are going to have this Mark. How many of those will take this option?

I'd rather flip this question back to you. If we both recognize this slot bonus currently matches, and sometimes exceeds most of the current other Mark bonuses and will get more powerful over time why not take it out? It is in a different tier of power altogether with its versatility when the point of the Mark Powers are to give the crafter the option to choose a power important to them? This one saint can do a dang good job at replicating all the other saints, which feels to me like it removes the point of actually making that choice. They're only 85-90 of these at most, wouldn't we want their choices to matter and not be able to reproduced by another Saint?

I for one hate the fact that we have to choose at all, so no, I would not want that. I like this one. I hope it stays.

Okay I've made an excel sheet that I hope illustrates the power problem of St Wilton.


Wilton can easily reproduce most other Saint Effects, and still has the versatility to let you optimize to better tokens in the future. I'll try to add more to this, but as of right now I've got him exceeding, matching most every other saint. In very few cases he's down by a single point of damage depending on what you'd view as "Gaining" from him, but he'll only get stronger there in time.

I personally think he should be removed from the list since the goal was people needing to make a choice. I also think he's bad for game balance. Jeff I do apologize flooding a thread with more dour comments when overall I love the thematic change, I just think having a slot expander in the Mark list (and the ear slot in general) is a large level of power creep. I want to clearly outline it so you can at least take that into consideration.

I don't really have a stake in this, as the Paths are just too rich for my blood.

I just want to join in the chorus pointing out out that the St. Wilton option has one defining feature: it's completely unconstrained. It's not just as powerful as the Earcuff items that exist today, but as any Earcuff items that exist in the future.

Since Earcuffs also expand Charms, Ioun Stones, and (soon) Rings, it's also as powerful as any two of those items combined. So it's as Muk's + Relsa's for example.

Additionally, there's versatility: you can choose the right options for whatever class you run.

This removes choice from the entire process, as there's clearly a "winner" in terms of options. It seems like that runs counter to the goal of a "unique" item for each player.

Impy wrote: Okay I've made an excel sheet that I hope illustrates the power problem of St Wilton.


Wilton can easily reproduce most other Saint Effects, and still has the versatility to let you optimize to better tokens in the future. I'll try to add more to this, but as of right now I've got him exceeding, matching most every other saint. In very few cases he's down by a single point of damage depending on what you'd view as "Gaining" from him, but he'll only get stronger there in time.

I personally think he should be removed from the list since the goal was people needing to make a choice. I also think he's bad for game balance. Jeff I do apologize flooding a thread with more dour comments when overall I love the thematic change, I just think having a slot expander in the Mark list (and the ear slot in general) is a large level of power creep. I want to clearly outline it so you can at least take that into consideration.

I don't think I am interpreting this like other people, I think you just get an additional ear slot up to 3 not 3 extra.

James wrote:

Impy wrote: Okay I've made an excel sheet that I hope illustrates the power problem of St Wilton.


Wilton can easily reproduce most other Saint Effects, and still has the versatility to let you optimize to better tokens in the future. I'll try to add more to this, but as of right now I've got him exceeding, matching most every other saint. In very few cases he's down by a single point of damage depending on what you'd view as "Gaining" from him, but he'll only get stronger there in time.

I personally think he should be removed from the list since the goal was people needing to make a choice. I also think he's bad for game balance. Jeff I do apologize flooding a thread with more dour comments when overall I love the thematic change, I just think having a slot expander in the Mark list (and the ear slot in general) is a large level of power creep. I want to clearly outline it so you can at least take that into consideration.

I don't think I am interpreting this like other people, I think you just get an additional ear slot up to 3 not 3 extra.

I was using it to model the additional slots you'd get for equipping one of the Slot Expander Earcuffs (Earcuff of Greater Glory, Earcuff of Orbits, Arcane Earcuff). The tokens in slots 2 and 3 match the slots given from whatever you put in theoretical new Ear Slot

"Token 1" column is the extra ear you're wearing, and the other columns are the other tokens you're wearing with the extra ear potentially, because many ears themselves are expanders.

James wrote: I don't think I am interpreting this like other people, I think you just get an additional ear slot up to 3 not 3 extra.

That's exactly what's being shown. You get 1 additional ear slot token. That token is one of:
* Arcane Earcuff
* Earcuff of Orbits
* Earcuff of Greater Glory

Those grant you 2 charms, Ioun stones or rings (respectively).

With tokens that exist today you can meet or exceed the benefit from any other option, without locking yourself into a specific build choice (melee, ranged, spell, retribution, etc.)

That's why it's broken.

Marc D wrote: With tokens that exist today you can meet or exceed the benefit from any other option, without locking yourself into a specific build choice (melee, ranged, spell, retribution, etc.)

That's why it's broken.

+1

Marc D wrote:

James wrote: I don't think I am interpreting this like other people, I think you just get an additional ear slot up to 3 not 3 extra.

That's exactly what's being shown. You get 1 additional ear slot token. That token is one of:
* Arcane Earcuff
* Earcuff of Orbits
* Earcuff of Greater Glory

Those grant you 2 charms, Ioun stones or rings (respectively).

With tokens that exist today you can meet or exceed the benefit from any other option, without locking yourself into a specific build choice (melee, ranged, spell, retribution, etc.)

That's why it's broken.

+1

For a longer answer than just a+1, an extra ear slot is not only more versatile than all the other options, it is also more powerful than all the other options. Adding an expansion into the mix negates all the other options on power level.

Additionally, it locks an expander behind a short term, very expensive token.

I would much rather see a legendary “Arcane Earcuff of orbits” that is broadly accessible (as accessible as a legendary is anyway), over locking an ear expansion behind an 8k reward token.

I would be fine removing the extra ear slot if we also removed the must choose at creation restriction

Also, I’m leery of the Eldritch runestone one. Many of those effects don’t lend themselves well to 1/game