TOPIC: Propsal: Hellish Difficulty XP and Treasure

darkangel866 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

joshua baessler wrote: Yes, Nightmare can be farmed. But aside from monster bits or the 1% specials, do the Nightmare players really want more tokens? Or do they want a sense of accomplishment? I think it's the latter.

-Joshua

It's the previous not the latter. Why else are there huge discussion about treasure pulls in the Charm of Plenty.

I rather do Hellish difficulty with increased risk and better XP/rewards. Right now people farm the two completion tokens for those that can't do Nightmare or need more for their groups.

I disagree. It is the latter. You can farm on any difficulty, why do it on Nightmare where the opportunity to miss a stamp rises? Hardcore gives the same rewards (except the Green Completion). Anyone looking to make a buck would be smarter to play that.

Notice how many people have already spoken out about extra rewards on a tougher difficulty.

I disagree that its the latter. I know more groups that do nightmare for both completion tokens. And to make money people need both tokens so makes more money doing Nightmare.

My group farms Nightmare for both completion tokens. Never miss a treasure stamp. Waste of time to do hardcore for 1 completion token instead of getting both.

Picc wrote:

Kaledor wrote: Then leave the rewards the same as Nightmare?

But increase the XP due to the increased risk.

The XP is the same between Hardcore and Nightmare, Nightmare gets extra rewards.

IMO more xp would be the bigger problem. Only thing worse would be a unique completion token.

No. No increased XP or rewards. No, no, no.

If you create another level and give it ANYTHING which can't be gained on a lower level (more XP, cooler loot, unique completion token) then you will have people who run it for the reward, instead of for the challenge. You'll get people doing it who aren't ready for it. They will complain it is too hard. It will get watered down. (Lacerate, rinse, repeat.)

One of the reasons Nightmare works the way it does, is because you don't have people running it *just for the XP* ..those folks can run Hardcore, and get their Max XP. You don't have people running it *just for the completion token*, because you can get that on Hardcore too. Yes, you get a tiny bit more loot (green and red completion tokens) but anyone geared up enough to run Nightmare can generally afford to pick up UC completion tokens on the secondary market if they want to.

Nightmare is for the challenge. It's for bragging rights.

That's why I am okay with the difficulty being ramped up a bit.

But for the love of game balance, please don't provide anything which would encourage people to play a harder level just for the perks!

Raven wrote: (Lacerate, rinse, repeat.)

I think nightmare should have monsters that are happy and smile all the time.

No biting or scratching, just hugging.

We could go through the dungeon trying to make them feel better.

After all, the drow are just misunderstood. They have a different culture true, but they're actually very sweet. I have heard a rumor that they like to share candy.

Then we wouldn't need to debate another level of dungeon difficulty.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I think nightmare should have monsters that are happy and smile all the time.

No biting or scratching, just hugging.

We could go through the dungeon trying to make them feel better.

After all, the drow are just misunderstood. They have a different culture true, but they're actually very sweet. I have heard a rumor that they like to share candy.

Then we wouldn't need to debate another level of dungeon difficulty.

And the only nightmare would be the players for killing and looting such innocent dungeon inhabitants.

I don't believe a Hellish difficulty should have anything extra (beyond maybe a unique button).

It should be for the challenge alone.

Raven wrote:

Picc wrote:

Kaledor wrote: Then leave the rewards the same as Nightmare?

But increase the XP due to the increased risk.

The XP is the same between Hardcore and Nightmare, Nightmare gets extra rewards.

IMO more xp would be the bigger problem. Only thing worse would be a unique completion token.

No. No increased XP or rewards. No, no, no.

If you create another level and give it ANYTHING which can't be gained on a lower level (more XP, cooler loot, unique completion token) then you will have people who run it for the reward, instead of for the challenge. You'll get people doing it who aren't ready for it. They will complain it is too hard. It will get watered down. (Lacerate, rinse, repeat.)

One of the reasons Nightmare works the way it does, is because you don't have people running it *just for the XP* ..those folks can run Hardcore, and get their Max XP. You don't have people running it *just for the completion token*, because you can get that on Hardcore too. Yes, you get a tiny bit more loot (green and red completion tokens) but anyone geared up enough to run Nightmare can generally afford to pick up UC completion tokens on the secondary market if they want to.

Nightmare is for the challenge. It's for bragging rights.

That's why I am okay with the difficulty being ramped up a bit.

But for the love of game balance, please don't provide anything which would encourage people to play a harder level just for the perks!

+1
Maybe just add something called Nightmare-plus (tm)

Here's how it works: add a box to the party card called "Nightmare-plus," and the last thing the party does is tell the coach what number to enter into that box, from 1 to 100. Higher, if sanity is not an issue.

The DMs use nightmare stats, and add the chosen number to the monsters' AC and saving throw bonuses, and all combat/push/puzzle-fail damage. (Or the players can add the damage themselves so the DM only has to deal with AC). Maybe each monster gets extra HP equal to 10 or 20 or 50 times that modifier, too.

Then parties can come here and brag about their NM+ run, but only if they don't get TPK'ed. Whatever team has chosen the highest NM+ modifier and has the most survivors at the end (at least one) is proclaimed champions. Winners get to gloat and be acknowledged as demigods by their fellow players. Losers whine about bad slides and crazy die rolls and vow to be champions next time.

But XP, loot and completion rewards stay the same, and each group can make it as challenging as they want.

IF there were to be a difficulty level higher than Nightmare, in my opinion:

- There should not be extra XP

- There should not be any unique tokens

- Maybe you could have extra participation tokens. (Whereas Nightmare gets you both, maybe Hellish would get you two of each for a total of four).

- Maybe you could have extra treasure coins.

- Maybe you could have a unique pin or something.

Incognito wrote: IF there were to be a difficulty level higher than Nightmare, in my opinion:

- There should not be extra XP

- There should not be any unique tokens

- Maybe you could have extra participation tokens. (Whereas Nightmare gets you both, maybe Hellish would get you two of each for a total of four).

- Maybe you could have extra treasure coins.

- Maybe you could have a unique pin or something.

I know we're all munchkins at heart, but I'd really rather see a solution that doesn't involve giving out more stuff or making more work for TPTB. A certain amount of materialism is to be expected, but it's getting out of control, IMO.

I used to come home from school and say (some subject) was boring, or someone was a bad teacher. My grandmother basically told me no, I was a bad student. If I wanted to learn, I could. No one should have to bribe me to get an education.

Same principle. If players are too bored with how easy things are, maybe they should make it interesting on their own somehow, or buy fewer tickets to leave more available for newbies. But we shouldn't have to pay them to play with more trinkets.

Raven wrote: If you create another level and give it ANYTHING which can't be gained on a lower level (more XP, cooler loot, unique completion token) then you will have people who run it for the reward, instead of for the challenge.

QFT! (with my emphasis added)

Sing it, sister!

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Raven wrote:

Picc wrote:

Kaledor wrote: Then leave the rewards the same as Nightmare?

But increase the XP due to the increased risk.

The XP is the same between Hardcore and Nightmare, Nightmare gets extra rewards.

IMO more xp would be the bigger problem. Only thing worse would be a unique completion token.

No. No increased XP or rewards. No, no, no.

If you create another level and give it ANYTHING which can't be gained on a lower level (more XP, cooler loot, unique completion token) then you will have people who run it for the reward, instead of for the challenge. You'll get people doing it who aren't ready for it. They will complain it is too hard. It will get watered down. (Lacerate, rinse, repeat.)

One of the reasons Nightmare works the way it does, is because you don't have people running it *just for the XP* ..those folks can run Hardcore, and get their Max XP. You don't have people running it *just for the completion token*, because you can get that on Hardcore too. Yes, you get a tiny bit more loot (green and red completion tokens) but anyone geared up enough to run Nightmare can generally afford to pick up UC completion tokens on the secondary market if they want to.

Nightmare is for the challenge. It's for bragging rights.

That's why I am okay with the difficulty being ramped up a bit.

But for the love of game balance, please don't provide anything which would encourage people to play a harder level just for the perks!

+1
Maybe just add something called Nightmare-plus (tm)

Here's how it works: add a box to the party card called "Nightmare-plus," and the last thing the party does is tell the coach what number to enter into that box, from 1 to 100. Higher, if sanity is not an issue.

The DMs use nightmare stats, and add the chosen number to the monsters' AC and saving throw bonuses, and all combat/push/puzzle-fail damage. (Or the players can add the damage themselves so the DM only has to deal with AC). Maybe each monster gets extra HP equal to 10 or 20 or 50 times that modifier, too.

Then parties can come here and brag about their NM+ run, but only if they don't get TPK'ed. Whatever team has chosen the highest NM+ modifier and has the most survivors at the end (at least one) is proclaimed champions. Winners get to gloat and be acknowledged as demigods by their fellow players. Losers whine about bad slides and crazy die rolls and vow to be champions next time.

But XP, loot and completion rewards stay the same, and each group can make it as challenging as they want.

love it!

People have said it. Rewards should ALWAYS be the same. Only the challenge should change. Why do we need a new difficulty? Can't nightmare just be harder?

I'll even go do far as to say eliminate dual completion tokens and just do one.