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TOPIC: Do you want to become a Combat DM?

Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #25

Beertram wrote: 1. The combat DM is taking more time adding numbers than the group has to take actions and we run out of time.


I find this really annoying too!

2. The DM is confused and I miss on a 17 slide one round and hit on a 14 slide the next round.


There are occasions when I make a mistake - most often it is a case where I let the player hit when they really shouldn't have and only realize it afterwards. I don't go back and subtract the damage, but I do remember the correct to hit numbers needed next time. I understand if players might be confused as a result. Why did I hit last time (when you really shouldn't have) but I didn't hit this time (because I did things correctly this time)?

Other times, I will let a player get a sympathy hit. Say the newbie Elf Wizard with terrible stats who needs a "20" to hit. I might let them get away with hitting on a 19 or 18, especially if they are just doing pitiful damage with a 1D4 dagger.

Another common situation is ambiguity or confusion on the combat board. There are often spots with no numbers and players don't realize that is a miss. Other times, there are ambiguous regions and it is unclear if they are connected to the region with a high number.

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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #26

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Beertram wrote: I think quality combat DM's are what drive the core of TD. I have been put into many unfortunate situations in past years where one of several things happen:
1. The combat DM is taking more time adding numbers than the group has to take actions and we run out of time.
2. The DM is confused and I miss on a 17 slide one round and hit on a 14 slide the next round.
3. I don't believe the DM is actually doing any math and is just making it "appear" fun for everyone... "and you kill it as the horn blows" (even with no good slides that round).

In reality, when the combat DM's are not honest and accurate, there are a few negative results:
1. If they are dragging the combat out for theatrical effect, characters end up taking damage they shouldn't have. They may have used potions and/or spells they shouldn't have had to use, and this affects later rooms and token purchases unfairly.
2. The idea of purchasing better tokens become meaningless because if the combats aren't honest and actual, then having the better tokens meant nothing. "I wasted my money on making Io's +4 Keen Slayer Bow with a compass in the stock and I might as well have been swinging a turkey leg" (Yes, I know bows don't have a stock).

That being said, I thought the combat DM's all did great this year. I only had one combat where the combat DM dismissed my druid's slide of 15 as obviously a miss on NM, then realized the second round I was actually hitting on about anything 10+ (Go combat Druids!).

I think training sessions like this would be great for TD. I think Kirk has only been a combat DM for a few years, so it is awesome he is stepping up and pushing for this training!


There are two ways to calculate combat damage.

One lends itself to color commentary but is slow. It's great for early rooms and groups you know will win, so dawdling is fine in the main dungeons. You have 12 minutes so might as well use them, and it's more entertaining. But it's the only method most DMs use.

The other is all about speed. I use it in Grind, or in room 7 NM with lots of moving parts, or any room where you know that time is going to be the REAL killer.

Both are meant to be 100% accurate. Nothing really is, of course, because people make mistakes.

(In short - the usual way is to calculate damage "line by line" on the party card, but you're constantly ping-ponging your eyes between token/party card/Bardsong/random bonuses, and every transition adds time. The faster way, which eliminates a lot of context-switching, is "column by column": add all token damage, add all party card bonuses, add Bardsong in a lump, add potions/bless/etc. The more hits you're dealing with, the more time you save. But you have to be comfortable keeping a running sum in your head.

It be happy to show people both ways at GHC, but I won't be there. I know Kirk uses it so I'm sure he'll show people.


I disagree that one method is faster than the other. It really depends on what works best for each particular DM.

For example, I use the former method and I think it is plenty fast. In fact, I feel that those who use your preferred method spend way too much time trying to add together 5 to 10 numbers at the same time.

In addition, using the former method means you are more transparent about adding the various bonuses the players have, so you get less questions about "did you remember X?" and less people wondering if you are making up numbers.

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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #27

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Beertram wrote: I think quality combat DM's are what drive the core of TD. I have been put into many unfortunate situations in past years where one of several things happen:
1. The combat DM is taking more time adding numbers than the group has to take actions and we run out of time.
2. The DM is confused and I miss on a 17 slide one round and hit on a 14 slide the next round.
3. I don't believe the DM is actually doing any math and is just making it "appear" fun for everyone... "and you kill it as the horn blows" (even with no good slides that round).

In reality, when the combat DM's are not honest and accurate, there are a few negative results:
1. If they are dragging the combat out for theatrical effect, characters end up taking damage they shouldn't have. They may have used potions and/or spells they shouldn't have had to use, and this affects later rooms and token purchases unfairly.
2. The idea of purchasing better tokens become meaningless because if the combats aren't honest and actual, then having the better tokens meant nothing. "I wasted my money on making Io's +4 Keen Slayer Bow with a compass in the stock and I might as well have been swinging a turkey leg" (Yes, I know bows don't have a stock).

That being said, I thought the combat DM's all did great this year. I only had one combat where the combat DM dismissed my druid's slide of 15 as obviously a miss on NM, then realized the second round I was actually hitting on about anything 10+ (Go combat Druids!).

I think training sessions like this would be great for TD. I think Kirk has only been a combat DM for a few years, so it is awesome he is stepping up and pushing for this training!


There are two ways to calculate combat damage.

One lends itself to color commentary but is slow. It's great for early rooms and groups you know will win, so dawdling is fine in the main dungeons. You have 12 minutes so might as well use them, and it's more entertaining. But it's the only method most DMs use.

The other is all about speed. I use it in Grind, or in room 7 NM with lots of moving parts, or any room where you know that time is going to be the REAL killer.

Both are meant to be 100% accurate. Nothing really is, of course, because people make mistakes.

(In short - the usual way is to calculate damage "line by line" on the party card, but you're constantly ping-ponging your eyes between token/party card/Bardsong/random bonuses, and every transition adds time. The faster way, which eliminates a lot of context-switching, is "column by column": add all token damage, add all party card bonuses, add Bardsong in a lump, add potions/bless/etc. The more hits you're dealing with, the more time you save. But you have to be comfortable keeping a running sum in your head.

It be happy to show people both ways at GHC, but I won't be there. I know Kirk uses it so I'm sure he'll show people.


I disagree that one method is faster than the other. It really depends on what works best for each particular DM.

For example, I use the former method and I think it is plenty fast. In fact, I feel that those who use your preferred method spend way too much time trying to add together 5 to 10 numbers at the same time.

In addition, using the former method means you are more transparent about adding the various bonuses the players have, so you get less questions about "did you remember X?" and less people wondering if you are making up numbers.


Actually you only add two at a time.

If there are three hits (damage wheels say 5, 7, 4) I think "5-12-16"

If their damage bonuses are 3, 11, 8 then I continue "19, 30, 38"

If bard song is +4, then add (3x4=)12 more for total of 50.

It's faster for me if there are about 5 or more hits to deal with. Fewer than that and it's about the same.

The big time saver is the damage bonus on the party card. I just read down the column picking out the appropriate numbers once instead of referring to it multiple times.

I also like that I end up with one number per combat round to add up instead of half a dozen or more.

As for transparency, I often point and do it out loud so folks know what numbers I'm adding.

But I agree. It works for me. Kirk still uses it after I showed it to him his first year of DMing, so I assume it works for him, too. Doesn't work for everyone. YMMV

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #28

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edwin wrote: "I wasted my money on making Io's +4 Keen Slayer Bow with a compass in the stock and I might as well have been swinging a turkey leg"

I can really relate to that!


I kinda want this on a tshirt now
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #29

Brad Mortensen wrote: But I agree. It works for me. Kirk still uses it after I showed it to him his first year of DMing, so I assume it works for him, too. Doesn't work for everyone. YMMV


For the record I will be teaching both methods since I agree it will probably be dependent on the person. For me, I think because I'm getting old, changing the focus back and forth from the table to the party card is a bit slow and tiresome, so I do prefer the method Brad describes.
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #30

Picc wrote:

edwin wrote: "I wasted my money on making Io's +4 Keen Slayer Bow with a compass in the stock and I might as well have been swinging a turkey leg"

I can really relate to that!


I kinda want this on a tshirt now


+1

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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #31

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Kirk Bauer wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: But I agree. It works for me. Kirk still uses it after I showed it to him his first year of DMing, so I assume it works for him, too. Doesn't work for everyone. YMMV


For the record I will be teaching both methods since I agree it will probably be dependent on the person. For me, I think because I'm getting old, changing the focus back and forth from the table to the party card is a bit slow and tiresome, so I do prefer the method Brad describes.


I find this works best too, in Grind - especially when there's many sliders on the table which hit.

I'm a little different than Brad, in that I write more numbers on the table (23 pts of damage from the weapon wheels... 56 off the card... 5 hits times 4 pts Bardsong, etc... I'll write down 23, 56, 20, add them up, and scribble 99 onto the table, then announce "Your group lays into the Orc, hacking and slashing for almost 100 pts of Damage. He looks hurt, but not nearly as bad as you would like."

But when there's a particularly awesome hit... or a hit from a player who barely ever hits, I will add those seperately.

"Okay, these (slides back 4 pucks) do another 80 pts of damage between them, but the Monk with his double-crit to the Ogre's face does 48 pts of damage including Bard Song and the Bulls Strength he drank, doubled to 96! The Ogre is bleeding, missing chunks out of his side and left leg, and you can see his jaw literally hanging off his skull. He's taken nearly 300 points of damage so far.

But it's the Newbie Barbarian who comes outta nowhere at the last minute, frothing at the mouth as she goes into her battle rage, and slams her cleaver into the Orc's torso for 26 points of damage! That, with the Bard's inspiring battle song, is just enough to end the monsters miserable life, and it topples over, lifeless, at the Barbarian's feet.

Obviously I'm not quite as descriptive or picky for every round (Hmmm... 9 sliders hit on the Rat Swarm which had only 26 HP left. Yeah, your party leaves the alley with a thin pulpy mess of rat guts smeared on everything.") but I try to do it for the killing blows, and the Boss battle.
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #32

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edwin wrote: "I wasted my money on making Io's +4 Keen Slayer Bow with a compass in the stock and I might as well have been swinging a turkey leg"

I can really relate to that!


Does it have this thing that tells time?
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #33

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It might be worthwhile for ACs to do some combat training or run the combat for a few rooms - i had to fill in a couple times and had a hard time getting my DM brain back on track - it's been several years since I have DMed!
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #34

I am excited to give it a try! I doubt I will ever be a full time volunteer, but could certainly do part time or casual.
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #35

OK, this has been officially sanctioned by Jeff. I'll start working on an official announcement and an agenda. It will take place at GHC on Thursday from 6PM until about 10PM. I have one DM so far to assist which is probably enough. I have at least four attendees. I'll contact all of these people directly as well.

It is important to note that all are welcome, however this is still during the build so we are requesting that only people who are *not* volunteering at GHC attend. Assuming this works out well I hope to do it again at future conventions and perhaps we can better accommodate people volunteering for that same convention.
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Do you want to become a Combat DM? 6 years 6 months ago #36

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Kirk I have a slot till 8 but I would like to stop by afterwards if that is alright with you. Assuming my schedule doesn't blow up till then.

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