TOPIC: Token Effects Keywords

Wayne Rhodes wrote: So monsters get a reflex save against wands?

Not as a general rule, no. I was merely postulating that it would not be unreasonable to contemplate a scenario wherein one might possibly utilize a Reflex saving throw to mitigate by half the baneful numerical health reduction emanating from a hypothetical wand.

But here's a concrete example:
Wand of Lightning Bolt : Deals 12 damage as Shock to the target. On a successful DC 15 Reflex saving throw, reduce the damage by half.

Druegar wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: So monsters get a reflex save against wands?

Not as a general rule, no. I was merely postulating that it would not be unreasonable to contemplate a scenario wherein one might possibly utilize a Reflex saving throw to mitigate by half the baneful numerical health reduction emanating from a hypothetical wand.

Ok I can see that for specific wands that get a save like the other post list.

Druegar wrote: But here's a concrete example:
Wand of Lightning Bolt : Deals 12 damage as Shock to the target. On a successful DC 15 Reflex saving throw, reduce the damage by half.

Does wand of hornets ignore magic resistance?

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Does wand of hornets ignore magic resistance?

Is there a reason why you think it would?

Druegar wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Does wand of hornets ignore magic resistance?

Is there a reason why you think it would?

Is the magic resistance role a save? If it is then the wand should work if it’s not it should not. I’m just trying to figure out for this specific token how it’s Piercing effect will ever come into play.

If on a normal wand monsters don’t get a save unless the wand says it does or is a AoE effect then where is Piercing coming into effect?

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Does wand of hornets ignore magic resistance?

Is there a reason why you think it would?

Is the magic resistance role a save? If it is then the wand should work if it’s not it should not. I’m just trying to figure out for this specific token how it’s Piercing effect will ever come into play.

If on a normal wand monsters don’t get a save unless the wand says it does or is a AoE effect then where is Piercing coming into effect?

Some monsters may be particularly susceptible to, or resistant to, piercing damage.

Piecing a skeleton is less likely to be effective than some other monsters, as you could just go between the ribs, for example.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Does wand of hornets ignore magic resistance?

Is there a reason why you think it would?

Is the magic resistance role a save? If it is then the wand should work if it’s not it should not. I’m just trying to figure out for this specific token how it’s Piercing effect will ever come into play.

If on a normal wand monsters don’t get a save unless the wand says it does or is a AoE effect then where is Piercing coming into effect?

Some monsters may be particularly susceptible to, or resistant to, piercing damage.

Piecing a skeleton is less likely to be effective than some other monsters, as you could just go between the ribs, for example.

Ok I was thinking piercing was a keyword not a damage type.

Piercing, Slashing, Bludgeoning are the main physical damage types.

The PHB and DMG should have more info.

My fundamental misunderstanding came from the way I read the description in the data base.

I thought that piercing was what made the monster not get a save. It had not accrued to me that that text was on many wands in the data base.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Is the magic resistance role a save?

No. Magic Resistance and Saving Throws are totally different things.

from the PHB glossary:
Magic Resistance/Spell Resistance: A percentage chance for a monster to ignore spells cast by characters, scrolls, or wands. It does not negate magic that is not "cast." E.g., Spell Resistance will not prevent a +1 Short Sword from damaging a monster, it will not prevent the special ability of a +2 Rod of Disjunction from functioning, nor will it will negate Retribution Damage.
A monster with SR 100% cannot be affected by spells. However, there are tokens that reduce SR or eliminate it entirely.

Saving Throws (Saves): These give a character a chance to avoid something negative. There are three types of saving throws: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. To perform a saving throw, roll a d20. If the result is equal to or higher than the Difficulty Class (DC) of the save, you succeed. Sometimes a successful Save will eliminate all the damage or ill effects, other times it just reduces them. The DM will inform you.

Xavon wrote: Lots of games have keywords, short phrases that are placeholders for a longer, more descriptive effect. Given how tight space is on tokens, I think implementing TD Token Keywords could make things simpler, clearer, and possibly easier to read by allowing larger fonts.

For example:

Keen: X - Allows a critical hit if the value slid is X or higher. The attack must still hit, and the monster must be vulnerable to criticals

Focus: X - Spell cast get +X to damage dealt or damage healed. Does not effect scrolls or wands. If the spell innately hits multiple targets, this bonus applies to all targets, but if an outside effect allows the spell to be split between multiple targets, this bonus must be split as well

Breaker - Negates a monster's immunity to criticals, Sneak Attack, and Stunning Fist. If this keyword is on a weapon, only that weapon has this property.

Retribution: X (type) - When a monster strikes the player in melee, it takes X damage. If a type is specified, the damage is of that type. Otherwise is generic, physical damage.

Hero - +1 level.

etc.

And Keywords could still be modified. Like the Sneaky Necklace could say Keen 17 for Sneak Attack.

I don't think key words are a good idea, here's why.

I know people who have been playing the game for 10+ years and are not active on the forums/don't track there experience. Keywords would just complicate things for them. These are people who have maybe one or two UR's accumulated over that time.

There are a lot of players who don't follow token development. Don't look for runs before a con on the forums. Just don't use the forums period. I have friends who are not on the forums who have 10+ legendary tokens and eldritch tokens. I also have friends who are not on the forums who have been playing a lot longer than me with only the tokens they have earned from runs.

What if you get an entire PUG of newish players? They might all be in the coaching room reading these tokens asking what does this mean? Sure a coach or wrangler will come along but it would make the game less user friendly to first time players.

Just as an example. A friend of mine who owns a local game store called me up saying they were doing a charity magic tournament for a local high school kid who died of cancer and wanted to get as many people out as possible for it. The last time I had played in a magic tournament was 2011 or earlier. So there were a number of cards that had keywords which I had no idea what they meant. I felt lost and had to ask someone what keyword meant.

What's next after keywords, textless?

I think if you want to put keywords on relics or higher that's fine. You're not going to pull a relic from a standard pack. Or, if you want to put keywords on onxy tokens or make onyx tokens textless except for the token name and damage wheel if applicable that would be fine as well.

Ryan Gresch wrote:

Xavon wrote: Lots of games have keywords, short phrases that are placeholders for a longer, more descriptive effect. Given how tight space is on tokens, I think implementing TD Token Keywords could make things simpler, clearer, and possibly easier to read by allowing larger fonts.

For example:

Keen: X - Allows a critical hit if the value slid is X or higher. The attack must still hit, and the monster must be vulnerable to criticals

Focus: X - Spell cast get +X to damage dealt or damage healed. Does not effect scrolls or wands. If the spell innately hits multiple targets, this bonus applies to all targets, but if an outside effect allows the spell to be split between multiple targets, this bonus must be split as well

Breaker - Negates a monster's immunity to criticals, Sneak Attack, and Stunning Fist. If this keyword is on a weapon, only that weapon has this property.

Retribution: X (type) - When a monster strikes the player in melee, it takes X damage. If a type is specified, the damage is of that type. Otherwise is generic, physical damage.

Hero - +1 level.

etc.

And Keywords could still be modified. Like the Sneaky Necklace could say Keen 17 for Sneak Attack.

I don't think key words are a good idea, here's why.

I know people who have been playing the game for 10+ years and are not active on the forums/don't track there experience. Keywords would just complicate things for them. These are people who have maybe one or two UR's accumulated over that time.

There are a lot of players who don't follow token development. Don't look for runs before a con on the forums. Just don't use the forums period. I have friends who are not on the forums who have 10+ legendary tokens and eldritch tokens. I also have friends who are not on the forums who have been playing a lot longer than me with only the tokens they have earned from runs.

What if you get an entire PUG of newish players? They might all be in the coaching room reading these tokens asking what does this mean? Sure a coach or wrangler will come along but it would make the game less user friendly to first time players.

Just as an example. A friend of mine who owns a local game store called me up saying they were doing a charity magic tournament for a local high school kid who died of cancer and wanted to get as many people out as possible for it. The last time I had played in a magic tournament was 2011 or earlier. So there were a number of cards that had keywords which I had no idea what they meant. I felt lost and had to ask someone what keyword meant.

What's next after keywords, textless?

I think if you want to put keywords on relics or higher that's fine. You're not going to pull a relic from a standard pack. Or, if you want to put keywords on onxy tokens or make onyx tokens textless except for the token name and damage wheel if applicable that would be fine as well.

Interesting argument, and not invalid. But...

1) Games have rules. If you want to play the game you need to know the rules, or trust someone to tell you. And those rules often have special words with unique meaning in context. Beyond that, the games you mention already have keywords built in more intrinsic than what I am suggesting. In Magic, you have to know what tap means. You are objecting replacing "Crits on 19-20" with "Keen: 19", but what does 'crit' mean? What is '19-20'? Those are already shorthand in the game. For that matter, an ultra-newbie isn't going to know what 'slide', 'AC", and 'saves' are in the context of the game. And Keen will be just as familiar to the D&D crowd, though some of my other suggestions would not. And you could print posters for the coaching room.

2) This would arguably be easier for the DMs/coaches. A bolded "Keen: 19" is going to be quicker and easier for a combat DM to spot than having to read the full text. Same thing for coaches filling out the party card (since those same new players probably won't be using the PC gen apps).

3) Hyperbole doesn't help your argument.