TOPIC: Damage Reduction - take two

Mike Steele wrote:

Impy wrote: There are a lot of people getting into trying to design rules here to balance its token after a creation. A token DR only applying against one of its types is not a intuitive way to read the token, even if it would be more balanced.

If there is an errata to be had it would be on the tokendb entry of Deathward Greaves to state
"-3 Damage from any source (Except Push and Eldritch)". That clears up all wording, keeps token text inline with its intent and matches Wyld's existing writeup. As an attack can not be from multiple sources. As if the intent was to give "+3 DR to all damage types" it would have be written as such on the token

I have stated many times I do not like the Trilliant Tokens, but I do not want to write rules that cause confusion because of that dislike.

I also think the DR Cap is non-intuitive method to try to balance a token in post and not a good rule. But I lost that fight years ago

That would be nerfing the Greaves without similarly nerfing the Trilliant (and similar tokens). By saying "except Eldritch" it is saying that it prevents damage from all other damage types. It can't simply type out the damage types like Trilliant does, because it is literally all damage types other than Eldritch, including any that might not have been introduced yet. But it still clearly prevents damage from multiple damage types just like Trilliant tokens do.

I'm very confused on why people are so intent on reducing the power of the Greaves which only prevents 3 damage per type as opposed to the Trilliant tokens which prevent 10 damage from each type. I'm totally fine with a solution that the damage reduction is only applied once, or a solution that applies it to all relevant damage types. I just ask that it be consistent across the board, and the TokenDB entries for Greaves and Trilliant tokens be written similarly and consistently.

I agree with you that I also dislike the Trilliant tokens, and said that during token design. I didn't think any of them should apply to multiple damage types.

My stance is just:
"-3 damage except push & eldritch" is just very different from "-3 to all damage except push and eldritch"

The first has the verbiage of it only being applied once. I do agree the push and eldritch can cause some confusion, but the text is written in a singular fashion.

Sapphire Trilliant is written as "-10 damage from Sacred & Darkrift". For it to only apply once it would need to be written as "-10 damage from Sacred OR Darkrift"

I do not like arguing anything that benefits any of the Trilliant tokens but I just genuinely believe this are the most intuitive readings of the tokens. Give me a single TD Wish and I'd change each of the Trilliant tokens to be "-3 from [Type list here]" in a heartbeat

Impy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Impy wrote: There are a lot of people getting into trying to design rules here to balance its token after a creation. A token DR only applying against one of its types is not a intuitive way to read the token, even if it would be more balanced.

If there is an errata to be had it would be on the tokendb entry of Deathward Greaves to state
"-3 Damage from any source (Except Push and Eldritch)". That clears up all wording, keeps token text inline with its intent and matches Wyld's existing writeup. As an attack can not be from multiple sources. As if the intent was to give "+3 DR to all damage types" it would have be written as such on the token

I have stated many times I do not like the Trilliant Tokens, but I do not want to write rules that cause confusion because of that dislike.

I also think the DR Cap is non-intuitive method to try to balance a token in post and not a good rule. But I lost that fight years ago

That would be nerfing the Greaves without similarly nerfing the Trilliant (and similar tokens). By saying "except Eldritch" it is saying that it prevents damage from all other damage types. It can't simply type out the damage types like Trilliant does, because it is literally all damage types other than Eldritch, including any that might not have been introduced yet. But it still clearly prevents damage from multiple damage types just like Trilliant tokens do.

I'm very confused on why people are so intent on reducing the power of the Greaves which only prevents 3 damage per type as opposed to the Trilliant tokens which prevent 10 damage from each type. I'm totally fine with a solution that the damage reduction is only applied once, or a solution that applies it to all relevant damage types. I just ask that it be consistent across the board, and the TokenDB entries for Greaves and Trilliant tokens be written similarly and consistently.

I agree with you that I also dislike the Trilliant tokens, and said that during token design. I didn't think any of them should apply to multiple damage types.

My stance is just:
"-3 damage except push & eldritch" is just very different from "-3 to all damage except push and eldritch"

The first has the verbiage of it only being applied once. I do agree the push and eldritch can cause some confusion, but the text is written in a singular fashion.

Sapphire Trilliant is written as "-10 damage from Sacred & Darkrift". For it to only apply once it would need to be written as "-10 damage from Sacred OR Darkrift"

I do not like arguing anything that benefits any of the Trilliant tokens but I just genuinely believe this are the most intuitive readings of the tokens. Give me a single TD Wish and I'd change each of the Trilliant tokens to be "-3 from [Type list here]" in a heartbeat

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this, there's no point going back and forth on it. I still request that Greaves and Trilliant tokens be addressed in a similar manner, whichever manner that is. I believe that their effects are (or should be) exactly the same, I respect that you see it differently.

As I recall, the token design discussion on Deathward Greaves was to match the Barbarian Damage Resistance ability. I don’t know anyone playing Barbarian that was that subtracting 1 point of damage per damage type on the attack.

I also don’t see anyone suggesting that bloodless should deduct 12 damage from a sacred fire spell.

It feels like an intentional misreading of Death Ward greaves to prevent more than 3 damage per attack.

Dave wrote: I agree, this makes a lot of sense.

+1

Endgame wrote: As I recall, the token design discussion on Deathward Greaves was to match the Barbarian Damage Resistance ability. I don’t know anyone playing Barbarian that was that subtracting 1 point of damage per damage type on the attack.

I also don’t see anyone suggesting that bloodless should deduct 12 damage from a sacred fire spell.

It feels like an intentional misreading of Death Ward greaves to prevent more than 3 damage per attack.

I'm totally OK with everything you're saying as long as Trilliant's prevent a max of 10 points of damage per attack. It makes zero sense that they should be treated differently than every other source of DR that can prevent damage from multiple damage types.

Keep in mind part of the reason for this exercise is because there is so much confusion.

If they decide that the term "damage" means from a melee or range/spell attack, then that is how to think of that term. So anything that reduces damage applies to those. If it specifically states "melee" then its just that.

Maybe its easier to think of Fire/Shock/Cold/etc as a "type" of damage. The biggest thing going forward for any tokens which have multiple damage type reduction is just to eliminate multiple damage type attacks. Then the double dipping is never an issue.

So going back to the first post with the CHAOS STORM, just don't make those types of attacks anymore that deal multiple damage TYPES.

People do realize the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command, which blocks multiple damage types, has been around for a lot longer than the Trilliant, right? Where has that outrage been for the last 14 years?

AAckeret wrote: People do realize the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command, which blocks multiple damage types, has been around for a lot longer than the Trilliant, right? Where has that outrage been for the last 14 years?

Being a multi year eldrich relic from so far back that there are probably only ~150 total and it also uses a ring slot… I was OK with it blocking up to 40 damage.

Balance by rarity is a thing

AAckeret wrote: People do realize the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command, which blocks multiple damage types, has been around for a lot longer than the Trilliant, right? Where has that outrage been for the last 14 years?

Interestingly, the Supreme Ring of Elemental Command in the TokenDB entry doesn't say anything about stopping cumulative 10 damage from multiple damage types, even though the wording on the token is pretty much identical to the Trilliant. That wording about cumulative damage prevention seems to have originated with the Trilliant. That just enhances my position that either the Trilliant should only stop 10 max damage per attack or the other DR tokens that prevent multiple damage types should also be cumulative.

Endgame wrote: Being a multi year eldrich relic from so far back that there are probably only ~150 total and it also uses a ring slot… I was OK with it blocking up to 40 damage.

Balance by rarity is a thing

Has it ever blocked 40 damage? 30? Maybe 20. Actually done this, in a dungeon for real, and not in theory? Wyld already said a bunch of posts above, expect less multiple elemental damage types going forward. Either way, we’re now talking about nerfing multiple tokens (Don’t forget Greaves of Absorption and whatever else lists more than one type) if people really do want consistency along them all.

FWIW, my main character is a Barbarian. I’ve always treated the 1 DR as applying to each attack, even if the attack has multiple damage types. So, “the dragon swipes its claw and you get hit with 10 slashing damage” means I take 9 (assuming no other DR tokens equipped). If the dragon hits me with 2 claws for 10 each, that’s -2 or 18 total damage.

Similarly, if the dragon’s attack is a melee attack that does 5 slashing/5 fire, I’d still take 9. If it is two attacks like that, I’d take 18. (And I’d choose to reduce the slashing, since I have a Lamp of the Marid I might be able to use to heal up to 10 fire.) Maybe I’ve been thinking about it wrong, but it never occurred to me to do something different.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: FWIW, my main character is a Barbarian. I’ve always treated the 1 DR as applying to each attack, even if the attack has multiple damage types. So, “the dragon swipes its claw and you get hit with 10 slashing damage” means I take 9 (assuming no other DR tokens equipped). If the dragon hits me with 2 claws for 10 each, that’s -2 or 18 total damage.

Similarly, if the dragon’s attack is a melee attack that does 5 slashing/5 fire, I’d still take 9. If it is two attacks like that, I’d take 18. (And I’d choose to reduce the slashing, since I have a Lamp of the Marid I might be able to use to heal up to 10 fire.) Maybe I’ve been thinking about it wrong, but it never occurred to me to do something different.

That is how I always thought of it as well, and have always applied it. I want them to be consistent, but that I think would be my preferred application. It would seem pretty simple that no matter how many different damage types a DR source can prevent, it can't prevent more than it's max number. The Greaves stops at most 3, Barbarian DR stops at most 1, Trilliant and Supreme Ring stop at most 10. I think they all need to be treated the same way, but that I think would be my preferred way.