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TOPIC: Hardcore too hardcore for rare builds?

Hardcore too hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #1

Without getting into specific stats or effects, I wonder if it was possible for a party with good rare tokens, and maybe one UR, to win the big boss fight in this dungeon?

My party was short players (6 of 10), but ran out of time in the fight, and I think our gear is slightly better than a great rare build with 1-2 URs per class for 5 of the classes, and with a Purple and orange Ranger in the mix as well.

The DM called it when the horn started saying we weren’t close.

We did focus on the physical damage classes (no Wizards or Druids) - so maybe that was it?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #2

I don't believe it's possible to clear this dungeon on Hardcore with a rares only build. The damage output is too high and the HP pool is too much.

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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #3

With metagaming or on some random run?

My last run was metaed like crazy and the run was too easy to be optimal.

I've done two of my three meta builds. Being squirrelly, ran a full Eldritch build w/ 7 legendaries and my primary weapon was an uncommon.

But, I also have no sense of Hardcore, having done 6A Normal, NM, Epic, 6B only NM.

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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #4

Ian Lee wrote: With metagaming or on some random run?

My last run was metaed like crazy and the run was too easy to be optimal.

I've done two of my three meta builds. Being squirrelly, ran a full Eldritch build w/ 7 legendaries and my primary weapon was an uncommon.

But, I also have no sense of Hardcore, having done 6A Normal, NM, Epic, 6B only NM.


I meant without metagaming (this was the first, and only, run of V6 this group will do).

I'm wondering if for instance if you had a whole party of people with good general purpose rare builds, and maybe one or two URs even, was the boss fight clearable - perhaps with moderate consumable use.

I don't particularly have an strong feeling if it would be good or bad if the answer turned out either way, mainly I'm just curious. For years I feel like TD vet advice would be something like "hardcore is doable with good teamwork and a solid build made up of rares" - I'm wondering if that is still likely to be true.

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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #5

Matthew Hayward wrote: For years I feel like TD vet advice would be something like "hardcore is doable with good teamwork and a solid build made up of rares" - I'm wondering if that is still likely to be true.


Different people have different things in mind when they say "doable". By one measure, even though you died in the last room, you still succeeded, because you got the max XP.

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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #6

We've got significantly better than rare builds, and found the hardcore combats very challenging - and enjoyable. We won them all, but barely beat room seven before time ran out. I'm glad they're more difficult, some of the past combats we won in one round.

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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #7

Mike Steele wrote: We've got significantly better than rare builds, and found the hardcore combats very challenging - and enjoyable. We won them all, but barely beat room seven before time ran out. I'm glad they're more difficult, some of the past combats we won in one round.


Probably time for your group to go up to NM then. ;)
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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #8

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Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: We've got significantly better than rare builds, and found the hardcore combats very challenging - and enjoyable. We won them all, but barely beat room seven before time ran out. I'm glad they're more difficult, some of the past combats we won in one round.


Probably time for your group to go up to NM then. ;)


That is the weird thing about NM. It is a HUGE jump. I understand why. NM has to encompass so many variety of builds. I think Normal and NM balance are probably the 2 hardest to get right because they probably have the greatest variety of players in them.
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Hardcore to hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #9

My crew was doing NM with rare builds on a subsequent run until roughly v4, at which time we moved back to hardcore. We haven’t had an issue with hardcore, but we have always had 10 and allow 5th level and 4*s in the build (enchanters whetstone and master Ale drinkers Bead primarily).

We had a rough time with double downs in v6 on nightmare, even though we are running solid UR + relic builds. We died room 7 with 5 (bard, Monk, Cleric, Barbarian, Fighter), but won with 6 (bard, Cleric, Barbarian, elf wizard, Dwarf Fighter, rogue). Having the elf wizard was huge for winning initiative, and the Dwarf Fighter soaked a whole round of combat alone in RM 7.

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Hardcore too hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #10

All difficulties are shooting up. My group only had 6 for Normal. The Bard, Ranger, Fighter, and Rogue were all rares with a few UR thrown in. Wizard was close to base but I loaned them two URs. There was also a Dwarf Fighter who was pretty close to the starter build. We got to room 7 no problem and then didn't even come close to taking down the Beast. If normal is supposed to be doable with just a ten pack it's nowhere close to that right now.

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Hardcore too hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #11

Josh M. wrote: All difficulties are shooting up. My group only had 6 for Normal. The Bard, Ranger, Fighter, and Rogue were all rares with a few UR thrown in. Wizard was close to base but I loaned them two URs. There was also a Dwarf Fighter who was pretty close to the starter build. We got to room 7 no problem and then didn't even come close to taking down the Beast. If normal is supposed to be doable with just a ten pack it's nowhere close to that right now.

I think the expectation is that a single starter or the pregen build will get you to room 7… where you will be TPK’d. I know that’s what happened my first several years - make it to room 7, then die.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Hardcore too hardcore for rare builds? 1 month 1 day ago #12

Given a single run, without any planning, rare builds are not going to get through 6A or 6B Hardcore IMO.

I've been concerned for a while with monster stats, as AC increases plus DR increases plus HP increases aren't a linear increase in difficulty. I don't mind a single high AC room, but it should not be room 7, not with how room 7 has consistently seen DR and a significant amount of HP.

With your group, having six classes meant taking more attacks, too, which can force actions healing or will kill party members reducing damage output per round. I'd say 6AB is pretty AC friendly, but that's likely to cost damage output.

It's easy enough to figure out what the DR is on each difficulty for different monsters. I don't think Hardcore's DR is scaled well, either. I could see leaving NM/Epic DR alone and reducing Normal/HC. At least one room should have much lower monster ACs, around -4 at every difficulty level.

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