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TOPIC: Best in Slot Items

Best in Slot Items 2 years 1 week ago #25

Endgame wrote: The Long Answer


Great analysis, well done on writing such an in-depth and accurate post.

Endgame wrote:
A Rogue that wants to sneak attack at range is almost certainly going to use Lenses of Agility, but may use Lenses of Vital Sight if they want to sneak attack with Thor's or some other non bow weapon.


Just a minor point on this part. This was the case for a long time, but has changed a bit in recent years. Raphiel's Sneaky Necklace cannot expand the crit range on Thor's, so there's not much reason for a Rogue to equip Thor's any more, and the existence of Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger means that if you're not going for an Assassin's Crossbow build you can just equip that without any need to lose an eye slot in order to perform ranged Sneak Attacks. So for a ranged Rogue, the two BiS builds are Assassin's Crossbow followed by Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger.
I play Rogue. Occasionally I even play Rogue well.

Current Rogue Build
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 1 week ago #26

Best in Slot Magic Item(s)

Grading system:
Orange indicates BiS with almost no exceptions
***Indicates generally accepted as unquestioned BiS
**Indicates used in most builds but there are exception cases

Back - Pharacus's Greater Cloak of Destiny***
Bead - Bead of the Lucky Traveller***/Master Ale Drinker's Bead**/Bead of Guided Strike** (fighter/rogue) or Bead of Focus (casters) ** or Bead of Cleric's Piety (anyone who can't use focus or guided strike)**
Charm (give 3) - CoAS***/Charm of Glory***/No clear #3 (A good case can be made for any of the following: Broaching, Heroism (for those who don't get 5th level another way), Quick Strike, Spell Storing, Draco-Lich, Garnet, or Lucky Charm.)
Ear - Arcane Earcuff*** (except for Paladin due to charm necklace)/Orbits (for spellcasters)** or Ravager** (for melee)
Eyes - Instant Analysis (for melee)***, Divine Sight (for clerics/druids)***, Agility (rogues)*** - for everyone else no clear BiS (Psyferres and Sniper are likely the two most common)
Feet - BoFW***
Figurine - Phoenix** (Paladin/Cleric) and Owl** (Druid/Ranger) - otherwise no clear BiS (Cat, Panther, Raven, Tortoise, Dragon, and Pixie are the closest)
Finger - Muk's Greater Ring of Havok***/Relsa's*** (for spellcasters) - otherwise no clear BiS for the 2nd ring (SRoEC, Heroism, Quick Blessing, Expertise, Wonder, Eel or Yeti all have a case for a 2nd or 3rd ring slot)
Hands - No BiS. Blessed Tempest (most likely BiS for bard/druid/wizard), Greater Archery, Death Knight, Flying Fists, and Weapon Finesse are all candidates depending on the builds)
Head - No BiS - Cranston's is probably the most common (Cook's, Might, and Perns are likely the best - though Perns mainly to complete Redoubt set since AC isn't terribly important above HC)
Ioun Stone (give 3) - Mystic Orb*** (if you have the skull)/Jasper Ellipsoid and Fire Prism (melee)** or Banshee Prism** (ranged/spell)/No clear 3rd BiS (Garnett Cube, Elfstone Shard, Flourite Sphere (for healers), Charming Cabochan are likely the top contenders for that slot)
Legs - Kilt of Dungeonbane***
Mainhand (weapon) - +5 Deathcleaver (Barbarian)***, Ava's (Paladin)***, +5 Viper Strike Fang*** (Monk), +2 Assassin's Crossbow (Rogues)***, Drake's (Wizards)***, Dru's (Cleric/Druid)***, Widseth (Bard)***, after that no clear BiS (Welfor's/Thor's for mainhand with shield is very common (likely **) and Io's for Ranged Rangers (**).)
Neck - Legendary Necklaces for Barbarian/Cleric/Fighters/Monk/Rogue/Wizards***, Ralson (Ranger)**, for Bard/Druid/Paladin Charm Necklace (depending on how close to 10 charms you have), otherwise no BiS for those classes
Offhand - +5 Viper*** (where applicable), Giln's*** (only for fighters), otherwise no BiS (best candidates Orb of Might where Viper can't be used and non-fighter, Shield of the Scholar (for casters), or +2 Mug of Battle)(also edge case - for ranged rangers - +2 archer's buckler for the ranged off-hand)
Runestone - No BiS (+to melee or ranged as applicable)
Shins - No BiS
Shirt - Focus** (for casters), Viper*** (for monks using 2 +5 strike fangs) otherwise no BiS (Oaf, Nimble, Blessed Strength are most common)
Torso (armor or robe) [divide into classes if possible] - Aron's*** (for all classes except Fighters and Paladin) (since AC isn't terribly important unless you are guarding or taunting), Byr's*** (Dw Fighter and Paladin)
Waist - Surtur's*** (melee classes), Orion's** (everyone else)
Wrist - Luna's*** (Bard, Cleric, Fighters, Paladin, Rogue, and Wizards) - Close choice between Luna's and Guided Strike for Barbarian, Druids using Iktomi's, and Rangers

I find it interesting that there are some uncontested BiS:
BoFW (feet)
Kilt of Dungeonbane (legs)
CoAS (charm)
Charm of Glory (charm) - ring slots are hyper-competitive so this becomes a must have
Surtur's (waist for melee characters)
Pharacus (back)
Muk's (ring)
Aron's (torso) - (for all non str-based classes or Paladins)
Instant Analysis (eyes for melee)
Divine Sight (eyes for clerics/druids)
Agility (eyes for rogues)
Luna's (wrist) for anyone who isn't crit-focuses and doesn't already get there otherwise (rogue/fighter)

Biggest surprises:
#1 - A rare made the list (even as an alternate) (Jasper's)
#2 - A Two UR's made it in slots where legendaries were available:
+2 Assassin's Crossbow (unquestioned BiS for rogues as the top damage option while also improving saves as a side effect)
Bracers of Guided Strike - amazing that these could even be considered against Luna's but for Barbarian and Iktomi using Druid (maybe Ranger too) - they seem to fit as BiS
#3 - An Eldritch item didn't make it as BiS (SRoEC) - often it doesn't make even as a 3rd ring
#4 - Iktomi's isn't BiS legendary for Druid (you can build a higher damage druid using the Charm necklace for both casting and polymorph)

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

Elf Wizard build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=247398

Rogue build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490#287189

Items for Sale or Trade
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Last edit: by Fred K.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #27

Endgame wrote: I went ahead and edited my long post and fixed a bunch of the formatting.

Also, while multiple posters are generally on the same page, we are getting some variety based on "what is best" since there isn't a universal definition of best build. If we change focus a little to "what cost unlimited build generates the most damage" we can get a clearer picture of where the classes stand and what is "best" in slot by comparing builds across each other. The person looking at the "Highest damage" build can also decide what compromises they would like to make to the damage to align the build to their definition of best. An example may be sacrificing some damage to increase Saves or HP, or equip Charm of Quickstrike and hope you roll well on the initative roll, or drop charm slots to always crit with Bracers of Guided Strike.

I present some sample "highest damage" builds below, with some minimal commentary. If people find this valuable, I'd be happy to add more builds and more discussion, but it's a non trival amount of extra work to do if no one really cares, or doesn't agree with the premise that we need a common, well defined starting point.

For all builds, assume all slotless items are equipped. I have only included the ones that affect the character summary for better comparison between builds.

Barbarian:
Most contentious selections in this build are likely to be Helm of the Boar and Corsair Eyepatch.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b7a26834-7a66-4ce8-9b6e-e94bc56f9459

1H Fighter:
I only provide the 1H fighter, as the 2H build can basically duplicate the Barbarian build. Furthermore, Dwarf Fighter and Fighter are the same build for max damage, the Dwarf just does less since the Dwarf has less Str.
Most contentious selections in this build are likely to be Helm of the Boar and Corsair Eyepatch.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/e9493a91-912c-4fe4-b061-5e532454e504

Paladin:
Basically the same as the fighter, but with a different Neck item. I also used Ava's over Welfor's, though Welfor's may deal slightly more damage (I need to check the damage wheels)
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/631dc6a0-1b4c-4a5d-bb45-e743fa4b7825

Melee Ranger:
Continues the trend of using the Corsair Eyepatch, but switches head to Crown of Might given that Helm of the Boar is not available.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/aff464e1-c06a-401f-8e06-63bce026e4cc

Ranged Ranger
Interestingly does not equip Luna's charm bracelets, as max damage is achieved using Supreme Bracer's of Archery (all damage charms can be equipped without needing Luna's. Hunter's leather armor is likely not a choice most people would make over Sunhide Robe.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/4e124147-7d10-4099-912f-4ada4a3682d3

Melee Monk:
Similar choices as above, though may also benefit from swapping Gloves of the Brute for Flying Fist for most builds. Alternatively, the Thrown Weapon Monk will deal slightly less damage, but with better saves and HP.
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/06cd6f1b-2aa8-4698-aefe-ae33e8614c96

Spell Damage Wizard
One balancing issue with wizard in particular for "max damage" was how to handle hp. Since a wizard can use HP as a resource, do you get more damage by using lucky cloak + charm to gain +5 all saves and 5 hp, or might it be better to go for shadowskin which may, or may not, save you extra HP? If you go shadowskin or Relic cloak, the lucky charm can be dropped for charm of spell swapping, which may add more damage over time, depending on number of combats.

On a similar issue, technically, a wizard will get a higher +spell damage value by using pants of focus instead of kilt of dungeonbane. At the same time, the 15 extra HP from the kilt can be used by the Medallion, which may net more damage than the +1 damage to each spell

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/8d060c12-6d51-4746-b3e8-8a6dabe85ec2

I really enjoy reading these Engame and learning more and more about the available tokens for different classes. Keep the ideas and BIS for different builds coming.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #28

Endgame made some interesting changes to my Paladin build I am going to look into. That said, to sacrifice the Paladin's support capabilities to hit as hard as possible in melee is something I have struggled with. Additionally since the to hit on ranged with this build using so many legendaries with expensive (volunteer) URs ends up at 5 - this build isn't hitting anything in ranged at nightmare, ever. Unless it's with a reaver. Also the starting life total is so low, along with AC being sacrificed for melee damage - Guarding would require lots of healing.

I am not at all casting aspersions at this build. The focus was BiS for melee damage and Endgame nailed it. Trying to create balance where my Paladin has a higher AC, better heath tank and can actually hit a flying monster if needed is what changes my ideas on the tokens to equip.
Last edit: by ElvisPrime.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #29

ElvisPrime wrote: Endgame made some interesting changes to my Paladin build I am going to look into. That said, to sacrifice the Paladin's support capabilities to hit as hard as possible in melee is something I have struggled with. Additionally since the to hit on ranged with this build using so many legendaries with expensive (volunteer) URs ends up at 5 - this build isn't hitting anything in ranged at nightmare, ever. Unless it's with a reaver. Also the starting life total is so low, along with AC being sacrificed for melee damage - Guarding would require lots of healing.

I am not at all casting aspersions at this build. The focus was BiS for melee damage and Endgame nailed it. Trying to create balance where my Paladin has a higher AC, better heath tank and can actually hit a flying monster if needed is what changes my ideas on the tokens to equip.

You have nicely described why it’s so hard to come to agreement on general BiS tokens. You may want to have a Ranged hit high enough to hit with a missile weapon. Someone else may be content to rely on potions of leaping attack. Target AC may be different for each person, target saves may be different and so on.

Here is a balanced Paladin build that meets the following qualifications:
Melee hit +20 or higher
Ranged hit +15 or higher
All saves +20 or higher
AC 40 or higher
60 HP or higher without other party members equipping CoAS or Harlax Lamp

To achieve all of the above, I had to dramatically decrease melee damage - I dropped damage more than 1/3 from the max damage build.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/7b06d272-f779-47e4-8086-3f0d715c0f26
Last edit: by Endgame.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #30

Endgame....great point.

@Jeff, I wonder if we had a poll of what is considered most important on build design...
1. AC
2. Saves
3. Damage
4. Healing
5. Versatility

etc....it would be interesting to see a poll of this nature as we start thinking about token design. I think it would create some empathy for others...

particularly, if we classify to build type (rare, some UR, full UR, BIS)
Jamie
AureliusBP


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tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/b4b81c8d-c52e-4ffa-b291-a2eba22a6a8c


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truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=252721#397741


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Last edit: by Jamie Campbell.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #31

Thanks Endgame for this fantastic Paladin build you shared - I appreciate your thought and token knowledge.

Out of the gate a double Giln's shield, Pern's Legendary and the Supreme Ring while retaining Pharacus and Sutr's made me choke a little (ok a LOT) but this illustrates why a Legendary should be the ultimate best in slot. This is a massive, well rounded build capable of handling their business as well as the affairs of those they guard! #goals
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #32

ElvisPrime wrote: Thanks Endgame for this fantastic Paladin build you shared - I appreciate your thought and token knowledge.

Out of the gate a double Giln's shield, Pern's Legendary and the Supreme Ring while retaining Pharacus and Sutr's made me choke a little (ok a LOT) but this illustrates why a Legendary should be the ultimate best in slot. This is a massive, well rounded build capable of handling their business as well as the affairs of those they guard! #goals

Minor note - you can use the same shield token for both melee and ranged offhand. You don't need to buy / build 2 Giln's to equip in both melee and ranged offhand.

You've now pointed out another potential qualifier for Best in Slot - cost vs effect. Perhaps the relic redoubt items are actually BiS over the legendary? For example, Blessed Redoubt Plate is 15% less ac, but it's 66% less expensive.

Having had conversations similar to this for around 5 years now, I'm more and more convinced that setting a target of "max damage" for a build, or requiring build minimums (all saves must be 20+, hp must be 60+, etc), or total build cost (build must cost less than X dollars) are the only way to come to consensus and make a point. Otherwise you just go round and round shifting goal posts.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #33

Jamie Campbell wrote: Endgame....great point.

@Jeff, I wonder if we had a poll of what is considered most important on build design...
1. AC
2. Saves
3. Damage
4. Healing
5. Versatility

etc....it would be interesting to see a poll of this nature as we start thinking about token design. I think it would create some empathy for others...

particularly, if we classify to build type (rare, some UR, full UR, BIS)


Yes, for example I would value To Hit (either melee or ranged) very highly and that didn't make your list!
Last edit: by David Harris.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #34

Endgame wrote: You've now pointed out another potential qualifier for Best in Slot - cost vs effect. Perhaps the relic redoubt items are actually BiS over the legendary? For example, Blessed Redoubt Plate is 15% less ac, but it's 66% less expensive.


I feel like what you're getting at here would be some other designation such as "best value" or "best bang for buck", though of course by that specific metric rare Plate Armor is only 38% less ac but ~100% less expensive (i.e. somebody will probably give you one free if you ask nicely).

IMO Best In Slot has a specific meaning: which token would you equip if you had access to all of them?
dmrzzz's trade thread

Yes, my AC is lower than the Wizard's. No regrets!
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #35

David Zych wrote: IMO Best In Slot has a specific meaning: which token would you equip if you had access to all of them?


And the assumption that you have zero knowledge of what you will be facing. For example, some of the tokens that affect Turn Undead might be considered best if you know you'll be facing certain monster types, but otherwise useless.
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Best in Slot Items 2 years 6 days ago #36

It would be great if could figure out builds by cost, but costs aren't precise.

Also get the weirdness that $2000 would be a good threshold except max TEs is $2000.

There's a group of players who chase any token useful to them without concern for cost.

There's a group that doesn't max out because they consider legendaries or OOP stuff too expensive.

There's the vast majority of people who play who aren't remotely like either one of those groups and doesn't care about BiS or whether URs are casual player friendly or whatever.

Then, so much of what people post about is at the very extremes of play, when most core players are slamming Nightmare for max rewards. I consider NM to be slumming it, where can do your goofy builds. I don't have a sense of where TA puts the greatest weight or whether there is even a greatest weight. I could imagine that trying to make the game function at the pack level, trying to sell people URs, trying to sell the .1%ers on highest end is what has been attempted, where what happens is that squeezes a level of play between low and high. But, having never been in that "Hardcore and Hopeful" level of play, I don't understand it and may be missing something.
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