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TOPIC: 2027 Ultra Rares Round 2

2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #25

My concern for the +2 Voidbane Cannon is the 40 is the largest pip we've seen on a token. It will be a thorn is design for every set going forward. I suggest the following:
Drop the 40 to 30, add a stun to the 20.

Still a lot of damage but now stuns 1/3 of the time. Much higher risk vs. reward.

Jeff Martin wrote: All damage is Sacred.

Acherin wrote: I also added VTD support for the most annoying token of 2024 the +2 Sun Scimitar.

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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #26

Spirit Pet Owl:
Change the damage wheel to 3-5-6-7-8-8-8-10. Then either add +4 damage per Owl that attacks the target or +2 to hit and damage for each Owl.

If used by itself, it's a bit better than the exalted Spirit Pets. If a party coordinates, it can be a very effective attack.

Jeff Martin wrote: All damage is Sacred.

Acherin wrote: I also added VTD support for the most annoying token of 2024 the +2 Sun Scimitar.

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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #27

Regarding the Owl, I feel if an entire party of 10 people all:

* get the same UR
* build towards ranged physical attacks
* coordinate to use that UR in the same round

It’s OK for them to do lots of damage in the event that all or most of them hit.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #28

For myself, I really like the Ioun Stone with the slide healing effect.

I think the idea of making the combat table a bit more dynamic is very intersting for TD to do.

One of the most interesting runs I was on was with Jedibgc and he was kind of tired and playing Rogue and just flanked each round behind the 20. It was extremely effective and changed the entire run in a memorable way.
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #29

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Re: Plague Kult Kilt

I'm just shocked you didn't go with the more obvious (and hilarious) "Kilt of Cthulhu" (er, Kthala, sorry.)
"THERE WILL NEVER BE A TOKEN EQUAL TO A GOOD BRAIN!"- Smakdown

Check out these awesome resources:
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #30

After hard core builds, I quit playing Paladin because it isn’t that fun… the Cleric has Res so there went my sacrifice, and difficult to get a build doing more than 40 damage…

I finally made a paladin doing 56 damage a hit by tanking my AC and using a double handed Avon’s Death Cleaver but no Ava’s and such.

At lower levels, the Paladin rocks…
Last edit: by Mongo.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #31

Thoughts on this round:

Voidbane Cannon:
After a rather sizeable discussion on discord about this, here are my thoughts.

My first note is that a balance concern exists with Cleric Divine Intervention - an 11+ on the DI roll means all Voidbane Cannons slid that round deal max damage (40) and there are no side effects of doing so.

Second, we need to look at the damage. As currently written, this is 14.12 average damage without crit and 14.8 damage w/ crit (see end of post for math), and that includes the idea that you get stunned when you spin a 40. Without the stun, the average damage is 16.45. One thing to note is sometimes the stun is meaningless - if the monster dies the round you get stunned, OR if you run out of time and take push damage when you spin the 40, the stun is irrelevant. I'm currently estimating 33% of the time the stun doesn't matter, but that can be higher or lower based on your opinions. This is too high for a UR, IMO, unless it's a fighter(s) only weapon (fighters should get the "best gear" as their big character power).

Third note: I think we should always benchmark against comparable weapons, so we don't accidentally create major creep. IMO, the comparable weapons are the +2 Keen Longbow and the +2 Boomstick.

+2 Keen longbow (expanded crit range is variable effectiveness in PTD, so choose how often you think people will hit a 19+)
6.50 average damage no crit
6.83 w/ 5% crit
7.15 w/ 10% crit
7.80 w/ 20% crit

+2 boomstick is 7.875 damage average with 5% crit, but the downside of 25% of the wheel dealing 2 damage to you

Stun can be a big deal, so I get maybe wanting to push the average damage up a little bit, so maybe consider one of these two wheel ideas:

If the Void Cannon dropped the wheel to:
[3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 20]
With the starburst on the 20
Expected damage after a crit would be ~8.2

Or if we really want to make it about 1 big number on the void cannon
[3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 30]
And stun on the 30.
That should get 8.7(ish) average damage

If I got a vote (I don't), I'd vote for the version with the 30.

Charm of coordination:
I love the idea of the charm, but I dislike +hit as the synergy power. Any run has a cap to how much +hit it really needs, and that has some costs to character building and is a real reason to bring a bard and a cleric in a party. I'd highly recommend using +2/3/4 damage as the synergy power instead, which makes it basically a Charm of piercing / Summer / Winter / bifrost charm depending on number in party.



Guiding Gauntlets:
No huge complaint here - it's just a better version of the Gloves of Greater Archery (I do tend to prefer that missile and spell modifiers be different tokens to allow more design space), but these should be Gloves, not Gauntlets, since wizards will be wearing them.

Mask of Gaunt Luck:
I expect a lot of these to be in builds given the limited amount of mask options. Are you OK with lots of builds getting +3 saves in a new slot?

Blood Cult Mark
I'd probably shift this to - will saves. Reflex is often accidentally high, and Fighters get a bunch of Ref free with Relic / Legendary neck. Will saves often have a high cost (lost of action) on failure, while ref is generally just more damage.

Tobin's Cosmic Ring:
I'm not super concerned if a Paladin wants to use a neck slot for AoG and then also burns a ring slot for another guard. If the ring doesn't stack with the AoG, the AoG becomes pretty obsolete - might as well let the ring give +2 damage and Guard at that point. It won't break Paladin, AND the AoG isn't competition anyway.

Spirit Pet Owl
This should probably have a much lower damage wheel - probably as low as a flat d10. The coordination aspect is AWESOME, but it could be adding +20 damage per owl on top of an already high base damage. If you want it to be about coordination, maybe even make it +4 damage per owl that hits - it all ends up being similar damage, but then the owl doesn't just beat all the other spirit pets solo.

Logic for calculating average damage for Voidbane Cannon:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1418227880521109564/1458195296495603825/image.png?ex=695ec1b2&is=695d7032&hm=5d26a070a2b8d9c0cf851700056ced5849e9ff3f0729c73b22ab262126ff8dad
Last edit: by Endgame.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #32

+2 Voidbane Cannon

The two highest UR wheel values currently are 25. Can consider those tokens to not be the greatest things ever at purple, but I'm also sensitive to the idea of setting a new benchmark.

So, math. Yes, the math on this isn't simple if want to get at average damage. Losing a round of another attack with the Cannon is not just losing the damage wheel, it's also losing the missile damage bonus. Just like Boom Stick duds are not just zero on the wheel but zero in total. So, I did four rounds of mock combat with both missile damage bonus of 0 and missile damage bonus of 32. Why 32? It's a very solid damage bonus at purple and the higher the missile damage bonus the more effect losing the next round matters.

Note, I did this after some much simpler calculations. Not looking for perfect accuracy on every possible result, as the numbers change based on how many rounds combat goes, what missile damage bonus is, how often going to crit versus miss, and whatever I don't care to actually incorporate.

Btw, Boom Stick is not a good weapon. That it has more popularity than some better weapons should help point out that mechanically better isn't always more desirable. Boom Stick is dramatic. While humans crave power, they also crave stories, and more dramatic events are more memorable. It's actually a bit tricky finding great comps to Voidbane. I settled on Darkbane as my comp since it's current, even if the bonus damage against Undead/Were introduces another arbitrary assumption.

Where my calculations ended up. With a +32 missile damage bonus and assuming Darkbane bonus kicks in one third of the time over four rounds of combat (not relevant for Darkbane but relevant for Voidbane), Darkbane averages 41.7 damage per round and Voidbane 43.6. Multiply that by number of damage wheel slots (6) and Voidbane wheel is about 12 points higher. More numbers I'm sure folks won't believe in are that only about 39% of the top wheel result apply due to the losing a round effect of being stunned when using four rounds and +32 missile bonus.

Now, being Stunned is different than not being able to attack with this weapon. For instance, someone who expects combat to last three rounds whatever they do who doesn't want to lose a round could do other things for first two rounds, then cannon up. So, it's going to be impossible to put any definitive number on this token.

Anyway, being leery of going from 25 to 40 and viewing this as clearly better than Darkbane, I would reduce top value to 30 (minus 4 to impact by very fluffy math), reduce second value from 20 to 15 (cleaner -5 to wheel) as it's better aesthetics if second value isn't higher than half of top value, reduce the lowest value to 5, the second lowest to 6 (just in case rogue gets added to token to Assassinate proof it). Then, whether want to reduce the ten to a nine is getting deep into the weeds on how feel about the token.

Whether such changes balance the token against Darkbane is ... not terribly relevant since balance is not something this game strives for. Far more relevant is whether consumers will acquire the same number of Voidbanes as they would have with a lower damage wheel *plus* the feelings of consumers about how Voidbane compares to what they already invested in. Yes, that's a lot of guesswork, but, note, what they have invested in doesn't just mean another 2h UR weapon but how consumers feel about new tokens in general and whether they obsolete what they've invested in.

Blood Cult Mark

This is really powerful. Far more powerful than +2 Will save/Mystic Staff bonus or +1 Fort save/+5hp (generally, class dependent, of course). Reflex saves are the least important and the easiest to increase at higher levels of play. Not excited by being able to stack an even higher max STR in this game, but I guess +2 STR/-2 Reflex would better fit. Speaking of kilts later, look at how Kilt of Barrelbane has the biggest minuses, as it was recognized that STR mattered more than DEX or CON.

Charm of Coordination

Most of the dev process is just throwing out opinions rather than fixing typos or whatever. I know I'm not the only one, but I might as well be for all that this is going to matter. I do not like synergy tokens. When I play with regulars, fine, whatever, waste a slot on Awakened Synergy because numbers go bigger. It may seem trivial, but having to adjust a build to account for who may or may not be running something once a run begins because I don't know what other people's builds are is annoying. Having treasure change based on who does or doesn't have a particular TE up until everyone just CoWs is annoying.

While there are teamwork benefits to coordinating builds, there's also a loss of individual build identity. The CoAS slot could be something that's actually interesting rather than my assuming it will be in every one of my Epic builds outside of solo play.

Cosmic Armor

More comments are not more impactful comments, but I happen to be in a more expansive mood. This is too generic. It wastes design space to not make tokens more specific, like how so many tokens have become plus damage to ranged attacks rather than having tokens for missle and tokens for spells. +2 to an attribute out of torso is really, really good. Now, if it's deemed in theme to be generic, +1 for versatility would make some sense to me. I realize that's not sexy.

Earcuff of Murmurs

URs often didn't fit the theme for the year. I assume this is overengineered to introduce some drawback on more tokens to fit the year of the drawback as well as have more tokens that bury Will saves, which is likely going to backfire as something that gets ignored rather consistently is that tokens don't exist in a vacuum where the cumulative impact of multiple tokens exacerbates changes in the game as we have seen with things like damage output. The vastly cleaner, not overengineered, version of this token is drop all of the stuff about saves.

Guiding Gauntlets

As a side note, as it's always good for arguing to start with a side note, while it's outside of typical to switch between melee and missile or melee and spell at UR+, it's rather easy to switch between missile and spell for many a build. So, ranged damage bonuses are much more double dipping along the lines of druid and Focus than other polyvalent damage bonuses.

Given how long blasters have been using Blessed Tempest Gloves, I'm not going to cry over an UR that gives +4 spell damage at this point. That is a more reasonable token than how tokens keep becoming overly broad.

IS Amethyst Sphere

I'll chime in on liking the idea but not the execution. Design and development are two different things, even if designers often do development and developers often do design. Designers are supposed to come up with cool ideas, different stuff, expand the boundaries of games. Developers are to make sure new ideas actually work, which routinely means killing what sounds cool because it just isn't worth the squeeze. Now, maybe someone will come up with a mechanic worth the squeeze, but I have my doubts this token, as composed, will be a good addition to the game.

Mask of Gaunt Luck

One more shot. -5 HP is a huge deal when playing with commons, major deal when playing with uncommons, deal when playing with rare tokens, minor at UR+ level. New slot and immediately get +3 more to saves. Now, as much saves are exploding everywhere, that just means can replace some other slot with more damage output. If this slot is supposed to be strong in the saves, well, okay, but it just seems early to have such a big gap between rare/blue and UR in terms of desirability of effect.

Natasha's Nightcap

Slotless tokens should do very little and should often be dependent upon consumables. So, I don't have a problem with this token in terms of what it does. While others may not use blue potions, I've used a lot to even getting to the point of running out. I just don't see a reason to keep adding more slotless tokens. Look at real world builds at high end play. They have absurd amounts of tokens in them. More slots is part of it, more slot expansion is part of it, more slotless is another part of it. Yes, we can choose to play 15 token builds or whatever, by we I, of course, mean me since Pelor forbid people not fill every slot. It's just more scrolling through deckbuilders.

Necklace of Baubles

Charm Bracelets, once upon a time, was an interesting token. It had competition, even if it was routinely BiS. Does this game believe in limiting builds through slots? Every time it introduces another slot expander, it undermines what the game originally played like, which was 3rd level dudes with chainmail, a longsword, and a potion.

Of course, it's not so much the UR that I have disdain for. Charm Necklace already exists. It's that slot expander paths just equal more slots for nothing but more $$. Can say there's a decision between class neck legendaries and more slot legendaries, but, at least, the class legendaries weren't more generic goodstuff tokens and reinforced some identity, even if they are largely overpowered.

Plague Cult Kilt

It makes sense to have an UR legs item. Does it make sense to just keep adding more damage to slots? While the odd token that increases 2h attacks of all types is "ooh, different", it's become not different anymore; yes, it broadens the token's appeal, but what has been increasingly lost is that not every token should be appealing to everybody for multiple reasons including how it's easier to trade when someone doesn't want everything. Yes, not everyone cares about 2h damage, but it's on the spectrum of too broad along with the other tokens mentioned above. I'm also not sanguine on the thematics of this. Breeches would be somewhat better, but that's not my primary thematic problem with it.

Spirit Pet Owl

The first spirit pet was too many spirit pets in the game. The rules around spirit pets are a mess. The lack of implementation with VTD is the biggest problem with them. At least red dragon was unique to try to add some "fun" to the game. In general, alchemical attack forms are overly complicated in the game already. Rather than just keep adding spirit pets and trying kludgy patches, may want to just rethink what role spirit pets are supposed to have in the game.

Tobin's Cosmic Ring

It's inelegant to have the paladin ability be an "or". Now, for a different comment, I'm not enthused by how much Sacred keeps getting added to the game. Sacred is messy. It may be on theme here, but themes are easy to change. Could be on theme for the year to be psychic damage, which is also kind of messy. As damage types like acid are less messy mechanically, should try to control use of different damage types more.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #33

The Spirit Pet Owl is very cool. It could almost be a trinket for the Druid to polymorph into (once per game). Any way to make that happen?
Cleric since '09.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #34

Another thought building off what Ian Lee said about Spirit Pets.

I agree they’re clunky right now, even though they’re undeniably cool (hello, Squirrel). Mechanically, Spirit Pets currently function as a ranged attack, which immediately limits their usefulness to ranged builds. That’s a strange place to land for something that’s supposed to feel like a companion, not a niche weapon choice.

What if Spirit Pets were instead designed to be build-agnostic? Rather than having a fixed attack type, the Spirit Pet could simply act as an extension of the player’s current build. If you’re a melee build, the Spirit Pet attack is melee. If you’re a ranged build, it’s ranged. You’d still slide the Spirit Pet into the puck, which keeps the tactile, fun part intact, but it would function as a once-per-game alternate weapon that uses the stats of your existing build. Thematically, this feels right. A Spirit Pet isn’t a bow or a sword; it’s fighting alongside you. A squirrel biting something in melee or flinging acorns at range both make sense.

For VTD, this could mirror the Polymorph system. Spirit Pet would simply be another dice option, with a pull-down menu to select which Spirit Pet you’re using, and the same once-per-game restriction. No extra bookkeeping, no new subsystems to learn.

The upside here is pretty clear. This immediately gives melee, ranged, and hybrid builds equal access to Spirit Pets, instead of quietly favoring one playstyle. It also makes Spirit Pets feel more intentional and thematic, rather than like a bolt-on ranged gimmick. From a rules perspective, “once per game, my pet attacks like I do” is much easier to explain and remember. And with Spirit Pets apparently making a big entrance in 2027, this feels like the right time to address the core design before piling on more complexity.

That said, this only works if there are firm guardrails to prevent power creep. Spirit Pets should stay once per game with no refresh (except with the new transmuted gloves), should use the player’s current attack type only, and shouldn’t introduce crit expansion or stacked riders. The damage should be solid but not optimal. They should feel like a cool option, not an automatic best-in-slot choice.
Cleric since '09.
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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #35

Two notes:
Voidbane Cannon - I disagree that a 40 is a big issue. I would drop the 20 to a 15 and keep the 40. Then add a note that the voidbane cannon cannot benefit from divine intervention. Thematically, that fits as well - would the gods really jump in to add power to a Cthulh... Kthalta powered weapon? Mythos stories in fantasy worlds with gods virtually always have them at odds with each other.

Cosmic hammer (again, I suggest Mythos or Dark rather than Cosmic for the CoC feel) - art suggestion, have the hammer head be red and dripping blood (or at least look bloody if possible.)

Charm of coordination - I understand the design concept of having synergy items most years. To hit helps at HC and early NM difficulty then again late in higher end epic, and likely, mythic difficulty. I can see times when this helps but others where it won't. Damage will help everyone but creep is already getting pretty bad. An alternate suggestion would be a synergy save bonus?

I would have the crypt cloak drop 1 on melee DR from 5 to 4. 5 makes it difficult to use in retribution builds since you don't want to eliminate all damage - just drop it to 1 or 2.

Guiding gauntlets should be gloves (wizards and rogues can use them) and have a more cult like feel to them. These seem to be heroic paladin like gloves, not something you'd find in Mountains of Madness or Evil Dead.

Amethyst sphere - the big challenge is real estate on the token. It would make sense to have different in-person versus vtd effects. I agree this might cause a bit of table crowding for in-person. A solution for that might be anyone who's slider is hit with this person's slider heals 3. Pretty simple and you can do it from a distance. VTD that is much harder to do in watching the numbers rolled (they aren't always obvious.) I would recommend for VTD it be on a crit, the party heals 3.

Mask of gaunt luck - -5 hp isn't a bad enough penalty for +3 to saves. That puts it into relic territory. For that much of a bonus on saves, it should be a penalty to all damage or all to hits. Alternatively, make it -5 hp and +2 saves.

Plague kilt - two notes:
First - kilts don't fit mythos well. Breaches or pants make more sense.
Second - I STRONGLY recommend limiting this one. At minimum, make it melee only - ideally, both melee only and limited in which classes. As much as I love doing several hundred damage on a crit as a rogue with the assassin's crossbow, +6 puts it equal to greater gloves of the gladiator and an automatic on all range builds. Taking 2 dmg for a miss isn't hard at all and doesn't scale well - for a high end build, going from 90 to 88 hp is a rounding error. Maybe lose 10% of your remaining hp on a miss so it scales?

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2027 Ultra Rares Round 2 1 month 3 weeks ago #36

Feel that damage is the way to go if you don't want hit for the synergy charm. Saves are a bad way to go, since we've seen a bunch of +saves stuff already recently, so people aren't really lacking save bonuses these days.
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