TOPIC: Vaccine and masking debate, trying to shift this off the gencon update thread

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.

The vaccines were not rushed. They had been researching them for years before COVID-19 arose.

I encourage people questioning the vaccines to watch John Oliver's May 2nd episode.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

It IS your body, it IS your choice. If you don't want to get vaccinated then don't get vaccinated. Just don't think you'll be allowed to attend an event with large crowds that include people medically susceptible to a potentially fatal virus, who are unable to vaccinate against it if you are not willing to vaccinate against it. That would be placing other people in harms way for your choice.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.

They said COVID was deadly. It has killed millions of people. They said meeting in person without social distancing and masks would spread the infections, it spread infections. Not sure what you feel they were wrong about but 'everything' is definitely an exaggeration.

The vaccines weren't rushed, they gained universal funding that allowed them to be created, tested and brought to market faster than normal, but not by cutting corners, they removed the financial roadblocks that delay finalizing testing.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: The most susceptible people are overweight, old, have moderate to serious per-existing medical conditions. Maybe eat better, get off your arse and exercise, take immune boosting vitamins and practice personal responsibility. (If are sick in general stay home, you should not need a government billboard to educate you to wash your hands, see someone coughing stay clear etc)

That is plainly offensive and you should seriously take a look at your own internal biases that allow you to think this way.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Personally, I respect everyone's decision to live their life accordingly as they see fit. Not for me to say or tell them how to live. In my experience, I've found the extreme shamers to live the rest of their lives pretty unhealthy while lecturing others on how they should live.

Given that you suggested "Maybe eat better, get off your arse and exercise" I don't think you respect everyone's decision to live their life as they see fit.

Vaccination requirements and Masking requirements are not telling you how to live your life. They are specifically setting public safety levels for protecting the populous as a whole. If you don't want to vaccinate that is your decision. But the fact you've made that decision does not make you exempt from public safety requirements to protect the populous. If the scientific guidance at the time of the event indicates that unmasked, unvaccinated individuals are of no threat to the populous in general then there should be no reason to need either a vaccination verification or masks for the event. If the scientific guidance at the time indicates that vaccinated people are of no thread to the populous in general without masks but unvaccinated people are a risk then they should either require vaccinations for all attendees or require masks for all attendees, the safer option being to require proof of vaccination in order to attend and masks to be personal choice.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

It IS your body, it IS your choice. If you don't want to get vaccinated then don't get vaccinated. Just don't think you'll be allowed to attend an event with large crowds that include people medically susceptible to a potentially fatal virus, who are unable to vaccinate against it if you are not willing to vaccinate against it. That would be placing other people in harms way for your choice.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: They have been wrong about everything from the get go, so why is questioning the entire situation, rushed vaccines and the competency of the people pushing forced compliance being a crackpot? If you feel comfortable getting the vaccine go for it, if you don't that's ok too.

They said COVID was deadly. It has killed millions of people. They said meeting in person without social distancing and masks would spread the infections, it spread infections. Not sure what you feel they were wrong about but 'everything' is definitely an exaggeration.

The vaccines weren't rushed, they gained universal funding that allowed them to be created, tested and brought to market faster than normal, but not by cutting corners, they removed the financial roadblocks that delay finalizing testing.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: The most susceptible people are overweight, old, have moderate to serious per-existing medical conditions. Maybe eat better, get off your arse and exercise, take immune boosting vitamins and practice personal responsibility. (If are sick in general stay home, you should not need a government billboard to educate you to wash your hands, see someone coughing stay clear etc)

That is plainly offensive and you should seriously take a look at your own internal biases that allow you to think this way.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Personally, I respect everyone's decision to live their life accordingly as they see fit. Not for me to say or tell them how to live. In my experience, I've found the extreme shamers to live the rest of their lives pretty unhealthy while lecturing others on how they should live.

Given that you suggested "Maybe eat better, get off your arse and exercise" I don't think you respect everyone's decision to live their life as they see fit.

Vaccination requirements and Masking requirements are not telling you how to live your life. They are specifically setting public safety levels for protecting the populous as a whole. If you don't want to vaccinate that is your decision. But the fact you've made that decision does not make you exempt from public safety requirements to protect the populous. If the scientific guidance at the time of the event indicates that unmasked, unvaccinated individuals are of no threat to the populous in general then there should be no reason to need either a vaccination verification or masks for the event. If the scientific guidance at the time indicates that vaccinated people are of no thread to the populous in general without masks but unvaccinated people are a risk then they should either require vaccinations for all attendees or require masks for all attendees, the safer option being to require proof of vaccination in order to attend and masks to be personal choice.

He was just using pretty much every Covid denier argument in one post. People have been claiming you just need to exercise and eat right to avoid getting sick, which is false as plenty of professional athletes having gotten Covid. The idea that this was rushed is misinformed as well, as mRNA have been studied for almost 10 years. When I see this much BS in one post, I have done my best to just ignore them, as countering their points appears to have zero impact.

Hoping everyone can continue to keep this discussion civil.

This is absolutely not an exact equivalent comparison, but I can't help but note some high level parallels.
Smoking
It's hazardous to your health - Let's put warning labels on the packaging and try to educate people. Let's try to help people who want to quit. But in the end, its their choice.
Second-hand smoke is harmful - Let's only let them smoke in designated areas. Still their choice.
The effects drain health care resources - Let's charge them higher health care premiums. Still their choice.

Let's look at vaccines
Not getting vaccinated is harmful to your health - Let's try to educate people and give them incentives to get vaccinated. Still their choice.
It's potentially harmful to others if they don't get vaccinated - In the end there may be certain jobs or activities you won't be allowed to do if you're not vaccinated. Still your choice.
The effects drain health care resources - Charge them higher health care premiums. (I will not be surprised if this ends up happening. I certainly don't want my premiums to pay for any future covid hospitalizations of people who make this choice.) But in the end, still their choice.

Again, the two are not exactly equivalent (smoking is habit forming, I assume anti-vaxing is not), but their are some parallels. Just an observation and thoughts around where some of this might end up.

A final observation. Unlike smoking, where they ask you if you smoke or have ever smoked when you sign up for insurance, insurance companies can already verify if you've been vaccinated on their own. If you've been vaccinated, you're in a registry. I'm not sure if it's state or national, but it exists. My wife went to schedule her annual check-up with her doctor and informed the clinic that she'd been vaccinated at a local pharmacy. She was told, "We already know, we looked you up in the registry." If health-care providers have access to this, so will health insurance providers.

Dave wrote: Hoping everyone can continue to keep this discussion civil.

This is absolutely not an exact equivalent comparison, but I can't help but note some high level parallels.
Smoking
It's hazardous to your health - Let's put warning labels on the packaging and try to educate people. Let's try to help people who want to quit. But in the end, its their choice.
Second-hand smoke is harmful - Let's only let them smoke in designated areas. Still their choice.
The effects drain health care resources - Let's charge them higher health care premiums. Still their choice.

Let's look at vaccines
Not getting vaccinated is harmful to your health - Let's try to educate people and give them incentives to get vaccinated. Still their choice.
It's potentially harmful to others if they don't get vaccinated - In the end there may be certain jobs or activities you won't be allowed to do if you're not vaccinated. Still your choice.
The effects drain health care resources - Charge them higher health care premiums. (I will not be surprised if this ends up happening. I certainly don't want my premiums to pay for any future covid hospitalizations of people who make this choice.) But in the end, still their choice.

Again, the two are not exactly equivalent (smoking is habit forming, I assume anti-vaxing is not), but their are some parallels. Just an observation and thoughts around where some of this might end up.

A final observation. Unlike smoking, where they ask you if you smoke or have ever smoked when you sign up for insurance, insurance companies can already verify if you've been vaccinated on their own. If you've been vaccinated, you're in a registry. I'm not sure if it's state or national, but it exists. My wife went to schedule her annual check-up with her doctor and informed the clinic that she'd been vaccinated at a local pharmacy. She was told, "We already know, we looked you up in the registry." If health-care providers have access to this, so will health insurance providers.

Yes/no on the health insurers already knowing. Sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. My insurance gives a small discount on premiums if you see your doctor each year for a yearly checkup... But I have to have the doctor sign a form and send it in to the insurer, despite the fact that insurance already knows about it due to paying for the visit...

jpotter wrote:

Picc wrote:
I dont think I have the right to tell anyone else what to do, even if I think getting the vaccine is a really really good idea.

Rights dont ever "end". If they do, IMO, they are not rights.

Neither you nor anyone else has a right to endanger me or my family.

I agree to a point, your right to self defense is fundamental. But how do you assess when someone is endangering you and how you can respond. In this case it's not a direct threat, sure they they could be made to stay home, but if you dont feel safe so could you.

jpotter wrote: If you believe that you do, I'd like to hear your thoughts on laws in general.

I belive laws are a an imperfect but commonly agreed upon set of rules, enforced by government whom the people imbue with a monopoly on force. Mostly they are good, sometimes (like now) they are inconvenient, but none of us are permitted to take the law into our own hands no matter how much we would want to or everyone would and order would break down.

jpotter wrote: Do you feel that they are infringing on your right to shoot others?

Technically yes, what if for example someone was directly threatening you or your family and you defended yourself.

You would still be charged under the law, because that is what we have all agreed happens everytime you shoot someone. In that case, IMO, you would be within your rights to defend yourself but also have broken the law and it would be out of our hands to determine what comes next, though if I were the judge I would heavily consider the extenuating circumstances.

jpotter wrote: Do you feel they are infringing on your right to drive down the opposite side of the street and hit people who are following the rules?

That's not a right fundamental or otherwise so no.

jpotter wrote: Do you feel that restaurants and supermarkets should be free to serve people rotten food?

Probably, IMO, you should be able to sell anything. Those restaurants should also have to disclose what they are selling though which might make it harder to sell as food.

jpotter wrote: How about laws for cleanliness? Do all of these infringe upon the rights of the people working there?

Again no, these are also not rights. They are standards of employment set by the employer to comply with the laws of their region which is fine.

jpotter wrote: This is not false equivalency.

I think the fact that you posted this line means you know it kind of reads like it is.

jpotter wrote: Not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine will result in preventable deaths.

So does letting people drive cars. Hundred die needlessly every year in speeding accidents, all totally preventable if we just lowered the speed limit on all roads to 20 or prevented people from driving all together.

As does smoking, but it's people right to decide what they put in their own bodies. It's not perfect by any means and people make bad choices But I struggle to think of a better system or what would give me the right to implement it.

jpotter wrote: If you feel you have a right to do those things, I assume you feel the right to ignore all laws made to protect others?

I feel like the "if you, hyperbole, you must also" is a disingenuous argument, but putting that aside, of course I dont.

For the record, I agree with you that everyone who can be vaccinated should.

Belive me when I say, I want this to end as much as you. We probably even agree that the best end state to achieve that (the quick transition to a largely vaccinated population). I just think you and I disagree on the best way to get people to that end state.

Personally I have convinced two people who did not want the jab to get it by listening to their concerns, providing information where I could, sharing my own concerns, finding what common ground we could, and telling them what my own conclusion was (to get the shot asap).

I belive getting the shot is the right thing to do, largely because I have felt safe having these types of conversations and have articulated my concerns (with stuff like the incompetence of public health officials, who were thankfully not the ones developing the shots).

I might not have reached the same conclusions if I had felt like I was on the defensive or would be mocked as an anti vaxxer, or otherwise penalized if people found out I was hesitant. Which for the record I was, this whole thing is scary. In a case like that, I might have looked for others of my tribe and just kept quiet. AKA radicalized.

IMO, its self evident that lots of people are hesitant and we need to have that conversation in a way that finds common ground rather then one that puts them at odds with us even if we are all tired, scared, or frustrated at this point.

Picc wrote:

A very well thought out post (IMO)

My point is and was to respect others decisions to get it or not. Everyone has their reason for either side, bullying and shaming them into it is not helpful nor is forced compliance. Seeing the responses here and the selective hypocrisy on this issue is disappointing. In regards to my comment on living healthier, yes, the cheeseburgers, lack of exercise and hours of sitting gaming are far more deadly than this virus. If you live that way that is your choice to slowly kill your body just like smoking is as someone pointed out. If you want to get it go for it, if you don't I respect that too. Just don't expect me to take seriously getting lectured and chastised on health by people who are not healthy in their daily lives (Not saying any of you).

One aspect of all of this that gives me great pause is taking a look at every Senators stock plans, you'll notice how much they are all invested in the same Pharmaceutical companies (that push opioids, limit/raise the price on Epi pens) that are producing the vaccine. See how much they are all profiting, yeah, they definitely have your best interests at heart. I'm not anti vax but I'm very skeptical of this and who it's coming from. If that makes me crazy to question then I'll wear it with a badge of honor. If you respectfully disagree, cool, I''m not going to call you names or shame you. I unlike others respect your position and I don't share your life experiences that shaped you.

My personal position on any medical issue is that I prefer to take a natural approach to every problem first, then go from there. When my blood pressure was high my doctor wanted me to take pills to "fix" the problem. I opted to adjust diet and add more cardio and meditation, I completely turned my numbers around naturally and at 44 I have better numbers than a 22 year old. I was told that I needed shoulder surgery but went a therapeutic route and fixed that as well. I have a family member who had a very bad experience with a vaccine that still affects them to this day so that also factors into my current decision to hold off for now. So please, save the virtue signalling before you demonize others.

Thanks

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Picc wrote:

A very well thought out post (IMO)

+1

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Picc wrote:

A very well thought out post (IMO)

+1

+2.

Picc wrote:
Belive me when I say, I want this to end as much as you. We probably even agree that the best end state to achieve that (the quick transition to a largely vaccinated population). I just think you and I disagree on the best way to get people to that end state.

Personally I have convinced two people who did not want the jab to get it by listening to their concerns, providing information where I could, sharing my own concerns, finding what common ground we could, and telling them what my own conclusion was (to get the shot asap).

I belive getting the shot is the right thing to do, largely because I have felt safe having these types of conversations and have articulated my concerns (with stuff like the incompetence of public health officials, who were thankfully not the ones developing the shots).

I might not have reached the same conclusions if I had felt like I was on the defensive or would be mocked as an anti vaxxer, or otherwise penalized if people found out I was hesitant. Which for the record I was, this whole thing is scary. In a case like that, I might have looked for others of my tribe and just kept quiet. AKA radicalized.

IMO, its self evident that lots of people are hesitant and we need to have that conversation in a way that finds common ground rather then one that puts them at odds with us even if we are all tired, scared, or frustrated at this point.

I appreciate you answering my questions because it lets me see your point of view better. I'm guessing you have some libertarian leaning ideals, and we should never discuss politics together. Still love ya though, Picc , ya crackpot. this is a joke!

I agree with the bottom part of your post in that people should be given information and allowed to express their concerns. I also totally agree it should be done in a safe manner and people shouldn't feel attacked. I'm sorry about the accusatory tone of my post. That was not cool. I'm glad you yourself got the vaccine and that you were able to come to that conclusion.

I was really taken aback reading some of these posts at the amount of apologizing people were doing for anti-vaxxers. I see a lot of people are doing this from a place of trying to respect people's personal choices.

I am of the opinion that if your personal choices endanger our society, you should probably not make them. I see people talking about smoking and driving cars. Those things can result in deaths, and so we have regulated them. You can't smoke indoors and impose your second-hand smoke on me. The problem here is I can't see who has covid. In many cases they don't even know they have it. But their choice not to get vaccinated will impact me and the community.

I suppose I'm getting a little frustrated that in an age where all of the information is very readily apparent and available, people are still getting their health advice from Joe Rogan instead of Anthony Fauci.