TOPIC: Horn of Plenty and other such OOP tokens

Mike Steele wrote:

EN 429 wrote: I honestly think from a business standpoint Jeff should limit the number if token draw items. It's bad enough for him that some of us can pull the cosy or more of our runs. I love treasure ad much as the next guy. My group has HoPs of a different style, Humans who run but don't collect. We get their draws and they get equipped on a nightmare run that will succeed.

Mike, Lazlo isn't stretching to request reprints of dungeons. His point is that if Jeff had to acquiesce to every request of " I didn't get a chance at X." It would dilute the story and success of the dungeons. These requests of people crayon out because they want something scarce is absurd. Do what a lot of us have done. Start trading. There are HoPs out there. Do multistep trades where you get what a person is after. Put in the effort.
Life stinks, either do something proactive or stop whining. It is absurd to think that Jeff needs to give everyone a chance for something. I blew two Specials last year and only got a CoGF on one instead of a Mithral Coin. Do you hear me griping saying he should have given it to me? Nope, I take what I got.

Ian, you cashed in two Specials and got a Charm of Good Fortune and a Mithral Coin worth over $750, which is likely a very healthy profit over your cost, so I hope you're not complaining about that.

I think demeaning the people that are pro-reprints by calling them whiners isn't constructive to the discussion. I'm in favor of selective reprinting and/or function reprints or modifications as a small percentage of the number of UR's (somewhere between 1 to 5 of 20), and it's because I think it's healthier for the game for newer players to have access to some of the better tokens without having to pay hundreds of dollars for them in the secondary market - and that's if they are available. I don't see a lot of Mighty Longbows and Widseth's Lutes, for instance, even available at those higher prices. I'm not arguing for the reprints because I missed out on them, because I already have nearly all of those tokens, but because I think it's good for newer players to have access to them also.

I think you could certainly argue that it's healthier for True Dungeon to do selective reprinting as well. If TD were to reprint, for instance, a Mighty Longbow, Ring of Riches, Widseth's Lute, etc, that would result in additional token sales which help support True Dungeon. TD doesn't get anything from the sales on the secondary market of tokens at inflated prices.

So, I'd just ask everyone to realize that people have different perspectives and that their motivations might also be noble even if their opinions are different than yours. That's a lot better than calling people that are in favor of selective reprinting whiners and lazy, or calling people that are against reprinting selfish profiteers.

but TD does(at least from me) get money. I buy more tokens from TD from my sales. I do more runs

balthasar wrote: I would vote for some pants, which none of us are wearing Cargo pants of Collecting, which would automatically fill any Treasure stamp missed, for a max of 1 per adventure..... or make them synergistic, and if all ten party members have them, it would fill 2 or 3?

I'd be onboard with that.

I'm posting this just because I have not yet seen this mentioned yet.

I also believe the introduction of more treasure + tokens was to encourage more out-of-game events. If you recal back in 2012 they tried with TrueCraft and I thought last year there was supposed to be smilar type events that cost treasure draws to perform/participate.

I havnt (personally) seen much in the way of these treasure coin events but if Jeff was to implement some of those as a treasure draw sink then that would also help balance out the need for more treasure + tokens.

Just a thought.

Fizzikx wrote: I'm posting this just because I have not yet seen this mentioned yet.

I also believe the introduction of more treasure + tokens was to encourage more out-of-game events. If you recal back in 2012 they tried with TrueCraft and I thought last year there was supposed to be smilar type events that cost treasure draws to perform/participate.

I havnt (personally) seen much in the way of these treasure coin events but if Jeff was to implement some of those as a treasure draw sink then that would also help balance out the need for more treasure + tokens.

Just a thought.

There would probably be more events. Gencon keeps shrinking TDs space. So hard to do

Mike Steele wrote: Chad, I really respect your opinions, but those are two separate issues, and are not equivalent. Reprinting of UR's has been a part of the game from the very start, and Jeff has said repeatedly that every UR other than the Horn of Plenty has the possibility of being reprinted. Trying to ban reprints now would be repealing a policy that Jeff has had in place from the very beginning of UR tokens. One of the very first UR tokens (Ring of Regeneration) from 2004 was even reprinted later in Chip form.

(Snip)

They may have some similarities since they both involve having played / bought tokens for a long time, but they aren't similar in that one (reprinting UR's) has been True Dungeon policy from the start, and the other (rerunning dungeons and granting XP as if the player had ran it in the original year) is clearly not True Dungeon policy since the exact opposite was done the one time a dungeon was reran. People may argue that they are the same, but that doesn't make them the same.

I'm with Mike Steele on this one, regardless of my own opinions on reprints or XP.

The players trust Jeff to provide stability and continuity to this game. That means sticking with policies and not suddenly changing the way things are done. Stable markets last longer and provide more consumer and merchant confidence than erratic ones, so it's best for TD's longevity to not change policies back and forth. If the policy is that reprints are fair game, any player who invests in "hard to find" tokens is aware of the risks they are taking. If someone plays for max XP every year, they should expect that older dungeons are not suddenly made available for "catch up" XP.

Changing these expectations could make players question how much they want to invest in the game (not just financially, but in terms of time, effort, recruiting friends, volunteering, etc)

Raven, excellent point.

Raven wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Chad, I really respect your opinions, but those are two separate issues, and are not equivalent. Reprinting of UR's has been a part of the game from the very start, and Jeff has said repeatedly that every UR other than the Horn of Plenty has the possibility of being reprinted. Trying to ban reprints now would be repealing a policy that Jeff has had in place from the very beginning of UR tokens. One of the very first UR tokens (Ring of Regeneration) from 2004 was even reprinted later in Chip form.

(Snip)

They may have some similarities since they both involve having played / bought tokens for a long time, but they aren't similar in that one (reprinting UR's) has been True Dungeon policy from the start, and the other (rerunning dungeons and granting XP as if the player had ran it in the original year) is clearly not True Dungeon policy since the exact opposite was done the one time a dungeon was reran. People may argue that they are the same, but that doesn't make them the same.

I'm with Mike Steele on this one, regardless of my own opinions on reprints or XP.

The players trust Jeff to provide stability and continuity to this game. That means sticking with policies and not suddenly changing the way things are done. Stable markets last longer and provide more consumer and merchant confidence than erratic ones, so it's best for TD's longevity to not change policies back and forth. If the policy is that reprints are fair game, any player who invests in "hard to find" tokens is aware of the risks they are taking. If someone plays for max XP every year, they should expect that older dungeons are not suddenly made available for "catch up" XP.

Changing these expectations could make players question how much they want to invest in the game (not just financially, but in terms of time, effort, recruiting friends, volunteering, etc)

I play for MAX XP every year, So why cant there be reprints of the dungeon XPs that I dont have, it will lower the "value" of everyone elses Elite XP
then I can be at Level XYZ getting all those extra benefits too

in my eyes it is the same...I am not saying TD reprint all the dungeons in one year(like people arent saying reprint every token)

people asking for reprints for tokens is hitting teh "elite" ism of token collectors

so me asking for Dungeon reprints is hitting at the "elite " ism of XP

the awesome"elite " tokens I have, I worked/traded/bought sold and put hours upon hours in wheeling and dealing these...this is how (i think/am guessing) the people that have been running since 2003 feel about their XP

While I will never catch up with the XP leaders, over time the level gap will close given the way the XP needed for levels increases. I will eventually be close to the same level as the leaders. Sure it will be years, but assuming I keep playing it will happen. I'm already thinking about the teeth set and that's seven years away.

Maybe 30 years from now, I'll be paying a minion to push my wheelchair through the dungeon.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: I play for MAX XP every year, So why cant there be reprints of the dungeon XPs that I dont have, it will lower the "value" of everyone elses Elite XP

Why? Because it is against established policy.

people asking for reprints for tokens is hitting teh "elite" ism of token collectors

People asking for reprints are going with the established policy.

the awesome"elite " tokens I have, I worked/traded/bought sold and put hours upon hours in wheeling and dealing these...this is how (i think/am guessing) the people that have been running since 2003 feel about their XP

I am an acknowledged XP whore. I do feel very protective of my high XP status. You have that bang on. I'm not denying that people who have invested heavily in tokens may feel the same way about their collections. Obviously they do, or we wouldn't have this same heated debate every year

What I'm saying is that tokens have been reprinted, and tokens probably will be reprinted, and this is a known fact. So argue all you like over which tokens should (or should not) be reprinted, but don't argue over the reprint policy established. Especially because Jeff is very busy trying to put on an *awesome* dungeon for us all to enjoy, and has better things to do than plan next years' token run just at the moment.

Druegar wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It hurts no one to add more token draw into the game.

It does, however, increase TD's operational costs. By how much, I don't know, but it's greater than zero.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Out of Curiosity what are the other "never reprinted" tokens out there?

Officially, Horn of Plenty is the only token Jeff has promised to never reprint.

I am curious, has anyone ever suggested printing treasure token loot items that stack up together to make them equivalent to the HOP effect?

-Make them in different slots, ie- a ring, a charm, a necklace, a helm, etc....
-Make them incompatible with the HOP in order to kill the "token farming" threat.

And since such a collection of token effects isn't a reprint, the HOP retains its value. I can get the same effect from one token as opposed to 3 or 4 or even 5 tokens? That makes that one token pretty damned valuable and yet the combination of token in that "loot collection" have value to the "unwashed masses" of people new to the game. Everyone wins.

Crow I think if you burn 4-5 slots just to mimic a hop you are hurting someone. .. your party. On nightmare or hardcore 4-5 slots would be devastating just so you could get a slight personal advs advantage.

Rex Hood Jr. wrote: Crow I think if you burn 4-5 slots just to mimic a hop you are hurting someone. .. your party. On nightmare or hardcore 4-5 slots would be devastating just so you could get a slight personal advs advantage.

The idea was posited without consideration for difficulty settings on the runs. I haven't seen players take the selfish bent in Nightmare or Hardcore mode. Why? Because those runs tend to be highly organized. That said, I know from experience that just two players with just a few purple UR tokens can carry a whole team in a Hardcore run without a lot of "token input" from other team members - so I know those runs wouldn't be harmed by this kind of "treasure whore" build.

Nightmare is a different story. I am not saying it couldn't happen, but I doubt it will since Nightmare teams and Nightmare runs tend to be highly orchestrated events.

If people really want HOP equivalency and treasure pulls really make their day, then playing on Normal difficulty is a way to do that will no harm to anyone. Some people get there fun hoarding XP, some get it from costumes and RP, and some get their fun amassing treasure pulls - nothing wrong with that. And with the suggestion I made, token farming is still pricey enough so that it doesn't destabilize the token economy.

I am just tossing out an idea as a possible compromise that will make both sides willing to back away from the ledge. I'd rather not see the game devolve into bitterness over haves and have-nots, thus the suggestion.