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TOPIC: Power Creep Discussion

Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #121

Lequinian wrote: ok, so to get back on original brainstorming track with some pre-newbie thoughts from a long-time gamer, first time TDer @ GenCon...

Nobody wants to be "that guy" to force a group of vets to play normal. On the other hand, running with an epic-level vet who's a 1-man dungeon wrecking crew doesn't sound fun either. Totally.

Couldn't some of this power differential be handled by ticketing? CCGs have different variants of their games running all the time, can't TD run a Nightmare+ set of runs and Normal+ set of runs? Ratio would be hard, but I presume Jeff and team have some insight - or hand Jedi some stats to crunch. :) Or a tournament - say 8 ticketed Nightmare runs with the team with highest/lowest <insert condition here> winning some limited-run bragging token at end of convention.

As to power creep tokens themselves, its going to happen. I think Jeff and team already blend the pool to counteract - I think of MTG's Moxes (no reprints) or Dual Lands (reprint with slight disadvantage e.g. RoFH) or White Knight (reprints with signifigant advantages e.g. Tyr's vs +1 BoD). And the no reprints are a bummer for newbies.

That's why as a newbie, I also really like Seth's comment about evergreen. Although unlike Seth, (and don't pitchfork me) I would argue it applies to TEs also. As a CCG vet, limited makes things fresh.

And... because I have the floor. Familiars seem cool, but only for W/EW/D/Rgr/P. Infinite slotless seem wack. Kitting newbies with Avarice is awesome (hint hint). A hard-reset seem like a lead balloon. Digitization would be awesome.

Back to lurking...


Thanks for sharing your perspective. Open communication and willingness to share ideas is what will secure the foundation of TD as it grows and reaches new audiences.

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #122

Lequinian wrote: ok, so to get back on original brainstorming track with some pre-newbie thoughts from a long-time gamer, first time TDer @ GenCon...


Thanks for posting Lequinian! Great to hear different perspectives.

Lequinian wrote: Couldn't some of this power differential be handled by ticketing? CCGs have different variants of their games running all the time, can't TD run a Nightmare+ set of runs and Normal+ set of runs? Ratio would be hard, but I presume Jeff and team have some insight - or hand Jedi some stats to crunch. :) Or a tournament - say 8 ticketed Nightmare runs with the team with highest/lowest <insert condition here> winning some limited-run bragging token at end of convention.


TD did try offering Nightmare runs several years ago, but many people bought tickets to them without reading the descriptions. So people expecting to do Nightmare would still wind up with people that had never run before in the Nightmare-ticketed events. And since the available Nightmare spots didn't always work with schedules, you still had veterans in the non-Nightmare ones.

I do think changes to ticketing could help. One solution that has been suggested in the past is to have some portion of the runs sold as entire runs (instead of individual tickets). Then, after a certain point in time any of those runs that haven't been sold could be split into individual tickets. No clue whether GenCon cares enough for the extra work this would require, and they control the ticketing at GenCon (where I'd argue the problem is currently the most likely to come up).

Lequinian wrote: Back to lurking...


Chime in anytime :)

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Last edit: by Fiddy.

Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #123

.That's why as a newbie, I also really like Seth's comment about evergreen. Although unlike Seth, (and don't pitchfork me) I would argue it applies to TEs also. As a CCG vet, limited makes things fresh.


Thanks for your input. Back when the Horn of Plenty was the only TE, I felt like it was bad for the game, because to use it you not only had to sacrifice survivability, but also had to pay an obscene amount on the secondary market to acquire one. My position has changed since then, due to more TEs being put at different rarity levels, the notion that getting more treasure pulls simply feels rewarding, and the problem, as I see it, of banning TEs for a new format will result in people refusing to play that format. The power 9 of magic history didn't have the mechanic of a financial benefit year over year when they were restricted to Legacy aka Type 1. TEs literally have a RoI that magic cards didn't have, and the people who have the CoA also represent a larger percentage of the overall token buying power than Black Lotus owners. And, when the lotus was restricted, you could buy one for under $300, not the $1000-$1500 the CoA goes for.

Ultimately, I think TEs are fun and rewarding, but would like to see them further democratized so that it's less expensive to get up to, say. 6 pulls.

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #124

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Seth Murray wrote: Jeff makes sales to a person like me, who currently buys relics for $250 that someone spent $500 to craft and virtually never buys pouches due to the complexity of transmuting. The people who spend a lot still have the best gear and still buy a lot of stuff for their builds.

I see a lot of people mention relics are being sold at less than what it costs to make them. I think this isn't really an accurate assessment.

Based on previous super condensed auctions (especially pre order auctions that have extra stuff in them and a chance at a golden ticket), we can see that trade goods can have some pretty low costs. For example, we're looking at or under $1 for Silk / Plank / Stones, 25 or under for argonite, etc.

If you were to pre order a 8k set yourself, sell off everything else but the trade goods, I'm estimating relic costs under $225 not counting fleece, and desirable current relics, like the lute of free fury, selling at ~350.

What even the above doesn't reflect, however, is that people are generating trade goods from treasure pulls, so that is going to drop their actual cost of building the relics / legendaries even lower.

Long story short, it's not costing anyone $500 to build a relic...


Treasure from the Treasure box is not free. You paid $80 (at GenCon) to draw as many as 21. Deduct the $8 pack you get and maybe $4 for the completion tokens. So around $3.50 per draw. Not free.

There is a glut of silk, stones and planks at the moment. These things go in waves.

Well, I'm playing for the experience, which I would pay regardless of the amount of treasure I draw.


Sure. And I buy tokens so I can experience Nightmare. Does that make the mats I get from my excess tokens free?

It all depends on perspective I suppose.

The question is, would you be running the dungeon if you got no treasure?

My group does each adventure once at Gen Con, and then most everyone does them once again at Gamehole Con. We would still run them even if we got no treasure, so we accumulate the treasure for "Free".

If you're grinding 4 runs per day just to get the treasure, then there is no question you're paying per treasure chip.

Concur on it being a matter of perspective.

In regards to obsoleting tokens like magic type 2, I'm not a fan of that. The Token exchange program already tends to remove older tokens from the pool at rare and under, so there is a natural cycle. At UR, there is a solid reprint cycle, so for most tokens it seems like they will come back around if you give it a few years.

At relic level, I would hate to see those items cycled out, but at the same time can see how they will get nearly impossible to get over time (this in turn reduces the access to the legendaries). It would be fantastic if relics opened up on some sort of cycle or via some other mechanic (relic fragments, anyone?).

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #125

Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.

This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.

E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)

If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.

The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.

Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #126

Michelle wrote:

Endgame wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Michelle wrote: I have another thought on why my party feels stuck. Through collecting tokens over the years, once we got to the point of equipping mostly rares, we started just replacing rares with other rares. We're not getting URs fast enough to make a difference. We've done a bit of transmuting, and that's maybe helped a little bit, but I feel like a lot of the transmutes aren't great for us lately. Either they're not helping us get better or the recipes are too hard. It would be really helpful for a party like mine, if transmutes were a meaningful way to reasonably "trade up" to UR level tokens.

Did you see these transmutes from last year:

tokendb.com/token/enchanters-whetstone/
tokendb.com/token/charm-of-treasure-boosting/
tokendb.com/token/belt-of-ogre-mage-power/

Ed

I think these fall under the "recipe is too hard" category for [her]. The monster bit requirement on the charm of treasure boosting meant my group couldn't make any of those. The easiest one to make for us was the belt because I bought a whole buch of silk at $1 per during the auction blitz last fall and was able to acquire gold at just under $12 per 1000.

The whetstone is a little rough due to the Argonite - if you are trying to make your own argonite, you probably don't get many per year.


Yes, exactly. Those things would be great but they are too hard for my party to make. I address the whetstone and belt below. As for the Charm of Treasure Boosting, two of us (including me) have more than one treasure enhancing token, so we couldn't use it. If I did some trading to get a few Charm of the Faithful, I could make three for my party (I've only got three Philosopher's Stone).

Michelle wrote:

Endgame wrote: The current transmutes are pretty awesome with the Enchanter's Whetstone and Belt of Ogre Mage power. Last year's Blessed Tempest Gloves were pretty awesome too.

The 4* Transmutes really seem like they should be the bridge between rare and UR. Maybe I need to go petition for some upgrades on the Ring of Stamina, since it is pretty lacking compared to Blessed Tempest Gloves and Belt of Ogre Mage Power


Yeah, I was super excited when I saw the Enchanter's Whetstone, but the recipe was problematic. Aragonite is very slow for us to come by (we could make one for our whole party) and it didn't seem worth it to spend an Aragonite for an effect I could get with +2 STR that I could get from a rare token. Slotless would be nice, but I just couldn't justify spending an Aragonite on it.

The Belt of Ogre Mage Power was also awesome, but I didn't get a Belt of Ogre Power in my token order. I thought about trading on the forums, but honestly I don't have 10 Mystic Silk. I have 4.

I was able to make 1 Blessed Tempest Glove. I can usually make a few of the 3* transmutes each year, but can only make 1-2 of the 4* transmutes each year. Again, this is for my full party, not just one character.


If you need more Philosopher's Stones, they have been selling in the $8K forum auctions in the $1 to $2 range each. It's definitely a buyers market. :)

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #127

Brad Mortensen wrote: Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.

This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.

E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)

If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.

The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.


Mighty longbow got reprinted, and I think that's just fine (of course, I'm I a new player too :D). Reprinting stuff that is more than 5 years old seems like a fine thing to do, though I don't think the UR set should be more than half reprints.

Regarding Mithral gauntlets, I presume the replacement is Gloves of the Brute? I can understand why someone wouldn't want a dex penalty.

Part of the problem with printing things that are more than just stat buffs is that there are a number of classes without much build variation - there are no other themes to explore. Barbarian, monk, human fighter - these pretty much just hit things hard in melee. I'm hoping with the new batch of character cards, there is a little more of a branching option for each class.

Ex: Monk can play as they are now, and they have some kind of psionic alternative.
Human Fighter gets a buff to range so there is equal advantage to going range or melee.

When there are a 2 or 3 different paths for each character, it gives you a lot of extra room for non stat based token design.

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #128

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.

This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.

E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)

If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.

The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.


Mighty longbow got reprinted, and I think that's just fine (of course, I'm I a new player too :D). Reprinting stuff that is more than 5 years old seems like a fine thing to do, though I don't think the UR set should be more than half reprints.

Regarding Mithral gauntlets, I presume the replacement is Gloves of the Brute? I can understand why someone wouldn't want a dex penalty.

Part of the problem with printing things that are more than just stat buffs is that there are a number of classes without much build variation - there are no other themes to explore. Barbarian, monk, human fighter - these pretty much just hit things hard in melee. I'm hoping with the new batch of character cards, there is a little more of a branching option for each class.

Ex: Monk can play as they are now, and they have some kind of psionic alternative.
Human Fighter gets a buff to range so there is equal advantage to going range or melee.

When there are a 2 or 3 different paths for each character, it gives you a lot of extra room for non stat based token design.


Part of the concern I see with those three particular classes is that they have literally nothing else to do with their standard action other than hit/shoot the monster. All other classes (at least at 5th level) have other things to do with a standard action.

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #129

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.

This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.

E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)

If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.

The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.


Mighty longbow got reprinted, and I think that's just fine (of course, I'm I a new player too :D). Reprinting stuff that is more than 5 years old seems like a fine thing to do, though I don't think the UR set should be more than half reprints.

Regarding Mithral gauntlets, I presume the replacement is Gloves of the Brute? I can understand why someone wouldn't want a dex penalty.

Part of the problem with printing things that are more than just stat buffs is that there are a number of classes without much build variation - there are no other themes to explore. Barbarian, monk, human fighter - these pretty much just hit things hard in melee. I'm hoping with the new batch of character cards, there is a little more of a branching option for each class.

Ex: Monk can play as they are now, and they have some kind of psionic alternative.
Human Fighter gets a buff to range so there is equal advantage to going range or melee.

When there are a 2 or 3 different paths for each character, it gives you a lot of extra room for non stat based token design.


Part of the concern I see with those three particular classes is that they have literally nothing else to do with their standard action other than hit/shoot the monster. All other classes (at least at 5th level) have other things to do with a standard action.

That is why I like the direction of making the monk a psionicist or adding a ki checkbox to the new cards as suggested by someone.

Fighters could very much add a retribution sub type of play, but I think that makes the most sense with the Dwarf fighter.

I also don't think it's a down side to have one or two classes that just attack with their action. Some people want a character that is simple to use.

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #130

Brad Mortensen wrote: Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.

This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.

E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)

If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.

The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.


I'm not saying that you couldn't play with those tokens, I'm saying that running with those tokens would result in treasure pulls that are worth less. How much less? No idea. Maybe 25%?

Also, as long as you have a BiS item that's never going away, the only option is to reprint or upgrade if you want to sell more tokens. We've seen that time and again. Also, with no cycle, if we make a mistake with a token power level, currently we have to do an exchange. Cycling allows that to be a mistake with a life expectancy outside of God Mode, as I'm going to dub it.

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #131

Endgame wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.

This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.

E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)

If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.

The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.


Mighty longbow got reprinted, and I think that's just fine (of course, I'm I a new player too :D). Reprinting stuff that is more than 5 years old seems like a fine thing to do, though I don't think the UR set should be more than half reprints.

Regarding Mithral gauntlets, I presume the replacement is Gloves of the Brute? I can understand why someone wouldn't want a dex penalty.

Part of the problem with printing things that are more than just stat buffs is that there are a number of classes without much build variation - there are no other themes to explore. Barbarian, monk, human fighter - these pretty much just hit things hard in melee. I'm hoping with the new batch of character cards, there is a little more of a branching option for each class.

Ex: Monk can play as they are now, and they have some kind of psionic alternative.
Human Fighter gets a buff to range so there is equal advantage to going range or melee.

When there are a 2 or 3 different paths for each character, it gives you a lot of extra room for non stat based token design.


Part of the concern I see with those three particular classes is that they have literally nothing else to do with their standard action other than hit/shoot the monster. All other classes (at least at 5th level) have other things to do with a standard action.

That is why I like the direction of making the monk a psionicist or adding a ki checkbox to the new cards as suggested by someone.

Fighters could very much add a retribution sub type of play, but I think that makes the most sense with the Dwarf fighter.

I also don't think it's a down side to have one or two classes that just attack with their action. Some people want a character that is simple to use.


I disagree 100% that we need one or two classes that are simple to use. I think all classes should be viable for being simple to use due to the simple fact that an entire party may be new to the game. And in fact most/all of them have a "simple mode" of playing, we just don't always think of them that way.

Barbarian / Dwarf Fighter / Fighter / Monk / Ranger - "hit/shoot that monster"
Bard - "Sing, maybe think about doing a Lore check first if you're ok with memorization"
Cleric - "Heal people. If there's no one to heal, hit the monster with your stick"
Druid - "blast that monster, maybe think about healing sometimes"
Elf Wizard / Wizard - "blast that monster. out of spells (unlikely)? think about shooting it with something"
Paladin - "guard the Wizard (or whoever is squishiest) and then hit the monster"
Rogue - "Look for boxes to open. Stab/shoot the monsters."

On Normal, do you really need anything else? Even on Hardcore, the above script works pretty well depending on what gear you have. I think we just often over-complicate what you "need" to know to play a given class.

But then after "simple mode", 9 out of the 12 classes can go deeper. Why not let the remaining three classes have additional options in what they can do?

Why do I care about this? I really dislike playing Wizards, and sometimes all that is left on a run are the Wizards and Fighters (and I'd like more to do than hit monster with stick). But more generally, with 3 classes being "simple mode only", every full run has to have someone choose one of those three classes. I also do strongly think that having more options for standard actions can lead to alternative play that can aid in slowing down power creep.

Side note: I don't see retribution as a different play style for Fighters/Monks... your standard action is still "go hit the monster". You're just trading effectiveness of your standard action for maybe causing some damage on your off turn (and you can only influence that as a Dwarf Fighter).

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Power Creep Discussion 4 years 8 months ago #132

@Endgame - before the literal reprint of +1 Mighty Longbow, there was tokendb.com/token/2-keen-longbow/ and its transmutation path, which was supposed to fill the need for an awesome ranged alternative. Some people still weren’t satisfied until the literal reprint.

But you’re right, none of the replacements are exact reprints. There are trade-offs. But that’s kind of the point. There should be decisions to make between equally strong alternatives instead of just reprinting the same old stuff over and over.

Monks should prefer Brute over Mithral. One point of AC is IMO totally irrelevant, and they have evasion so -1REF isn’t that big a deal either.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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