Endgame wrote:
Fiddy wrote:
Endgame wrote:
Brad Mortensen wrote: Putting an expiration date on URs or better would be devastating. It’s okay, I guess, if the inevitable power creep means they get overtaken by a more desirable alternative, but to make them flat-out worthless? No.
This is one reason why stat-only tokens are bad. The way I’d try to address it is to come up with alternate relic and legendaries that do something different.
E.g. don’t usurp Surtr’s with a +8 STR belt. Maybe make a +5 STR with one reslide per game. (Don’t debate the merits of this particular example. It’s just an illustration.)
If an ever-growing player base is chasing the exact same things, there will be inflation and frustration. And I think straight reprints might be justified but they’re boring. Having reasonable choices is the only way we can start having interesting alternate high-end builds.
The problem will be if people get all Veruca Salt and refuse to accept the alternatives as viable. Some will always want the old stuff because they’ll say the new ones won’t be good enough, no matter how awesome they are. How do I know? Because it’s happened several times before, with the replacement versions of Mithral Gauntlets and Mighty Long Bow.
Mighty longbow got reprinted, and I think that's just fine (of course, I'm I a new player too ). Reprinting stuff that is more than 5 years old seems like a fine thing to do, though I don't think the UR set should be more than half reprints.
Regarding Mithral gauntlets, I presume the replacement is Gloves of the Brute? I can understand why someone wouldn't want a dex penalty.
Part of the problem with printing things that are more than just stat buffs is that there are a number of classes without much build variation - there are no other themes to explore. Barbarian, monk, human fighter - these pretty much just hit things hard in melee. I'm hoping with the new batch of character cards, there is a little more of a branching option for each class.
Ex: Monk can play as they are now, and they have some kind of psionic alternative.
Human Fighter gets a buff to range so there is equal advantage to going range or melee.
When there are a 2 or 3 different paths for each character, it gives you a lot of extra room for non stat based token design.
Part of the concern I see with those three particular classes is that they have literally nothing else to do with their standard action other than hit/shoot the monster. All other classes (at least at 5th level) have other things to do with a standard action.
That is why I like the direction of making the monk a psionicist or adding a ki checkbox to the new cards as suggested by someone.
Fighters could very much add a retribution sub type of play, but I think that makes the most sense with the Dwarf fighter.
I also don't think it's a down side to have one or two classes that just attack with their action. Some people want a character that is simple to use.
I disagree 100% that we need one or two classes that are simple to use. I think all classes should be viable for being simple to use due to the simple fact that an entire party may be new to the game. And in fact most/all of them have a "simple mode" of playing, we just don't always think of them that way.
Barbarian / Dwarf Fighter / Fighter / Monk / Ranger - "hit/shoot that monster"
Bard - "Sing, maybe think about doing a Lore check first if you're ok with memorization"
Cleric - "Heal people. If there's no one to heal, hit the monster with your stick"
Druid - "blast that monster, maybe think about healing sometimes"
Elf Wizard / Wizard - "blast that monster. out of spells (unlikely)? think about shooting it with something"
Paladin - "guard the Wizard (or whoever is squishiest) and then hit the monster"
Rogue - "Look for boxes to open. Stab/shoot the monsters."
On Normal, do you really need anything else? Even on Hardcore, the above script works pretty well depending on what gear you have. I think we just often over-complicate what you "need" to know to play a given class.
But then after "simple mode", 9 out of the 12 classes can go deeper. Why not let the remaining three classes have additional options in what they can do?
Why do I care about this? I really dislike playing Wizards, and sometimes all that is left on a run are the Wizards and Fighters (and I'd like more to do than hit monster with stick). But more generally, with 3 classes being "simple mode only", every full run has to have someone choose one of those three classes. I also do strongly think that having more options for standard actions can lead to alternative play that can aid in slowing down power creep.
Side note: I don't see retribution as a different play style for Fighters/Monks... your standard action is still "go hit the monster". You're just trading effectiveness of your standard action for maybe causing some damage on your off turn (and you can only influence that as a Dwarf Fighter).