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TOPIC: Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #37

Just catching up on this post. Here's my take given how often I spend calculating this stuff and playing an Elf Wizard. First, where I'm getting my spell damage from:

Drake's +5 Staff - 5 pts of damage
Relsa's Ring - 5 pts of damage
Boots of the Four Winds - 5 pts of damage
Earcuff of Inspiration - assume 4 pts of damage from Bard, but very often this past weekend I was only getting 3
Gregor's Tome - 2 pts of damage
Shirt of Focus - 2 pts of damage
IS Banshee Prism - 2 pts of damage
Lenses of Focus - 1 pt of damage
Bracelet of Cabal - 1 pt of damage
4 pc eldritch set - 3 pts of damage
I do equip the Cabal set (I'll explain why later)
I equip Ring of Spell Storing, but also equip Supreme Ring of Elemental Command - I give up 2 pts of damage per round doing this, so you can add that back in but I'm certain I was taking 50-100 less points of damage in V1 by equipping this ring and probably avoided death more than once in the process.
I do equip MEC
I also have the Crown of Expertise and Charm of Spell Swapping
Total damage per round is 32 (not sure how anyone can get to 40, you can swap the supreme ring for Greater Ring of Focus and swap Cabal Gloves for Blessed Tempest, but that only gets you to 37)
Also, I don't use MoMM because I need the charm necklace. (Avarice, Brooching, Spell Swapping, Awakened Synergy, Glory and Cabal are considered important charms and I have no other way to get to 6)

First, lets assume 3 combat rooms and 7 rounds of combat (very typical scenario in a real dungeon)
Room 1/Round 1 - 100 Use Cabal, cast Ray of Shock using MEC and Acid Ray - 61 for Ray of Shock (68 less 10% for chance of miss) plus 39 for Acid Ray (44 less 10% for miss chance)
Room 1/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 2/Round 1 - 104 Use Cabal, swap Ironskin for Ray of Shock using MEC and Magic Missile - 61 for Ray of Shock (less the 10%) plus 43 for Magic Missile
Room 2/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 3/Round 1 - 115 Use Cabal, cast Fireball using MEC and swap Invisibility for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 2 - 115 Use RoSS, cast Fireball using ring and MEC and swap Bull's Strength for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 3 - 72 Use Crown to cast Fireball with MEC

The total for 7 rounds comes to 614 pts of damage (about 88 pts per round). After 7 rounds, you're only left with Acid Splash's or Shocking Grasp for 38-44 pts of damage depending up whether or not you use MEC.

If you want to give up the Cabal set for Blessed Tempest Gloves you gain 7x3 or 21 pts of damage, but you lose the 2nd spell in the first round of every room and lose 125 pts of damage (Cabal = net gain of 104)

You can also gain 10 points if you go with the Greater Ring of Focus and dump the Supreme ring. You would add 14 more pts of damage but take more multiples of that. Also keep in mind you do 3 points of retribution with the supreme ring should you ever get hit.

Bottom line, it felt to me this weekend like I was holding my own, but very often the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Ranger were doing more damage.

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Last edit: by Dave.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #38

Matthew Hayward wrote: Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards


I think part of the problem is right here. These classes (in my opinion) should not all be lumped together into the damage focused classes.

All that the Barbarian, Monk, and the Fighters can do is deal damage. Nothing else. They literally have nothing they can actively do on their turn (barring consumables) to help the party.

Dwarf Fighter is close, as their Taunt doesn't require them to choose between taunting and attacking.

Rangers, Rogues, and Wizards all have other things they can as their primary action to help the party other than directly deal out damage.

Maybe the problem is that some portion of those other things don't scale well at the upper ends (or don't come into play for other reasons). And we should look at what needs to happen to make those more attractive so that people remember that their class does more than just direct damage.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #39

I don't think damage is the issue in VTD. At least for me it has been that casters don't have to slide so their damage is not based on that skill. Sure a monster can be nerf magic, but they can nerf melee attacks just as easily. With the d10+10 system, unless you roll a 1 you are going to hit. Maybe most have better sliding skills than my group, but we definitely miss a lot more in physical than we did in VTD, which is why I haven't had issues with differences between sliders and casters. VTD's d10+10 messes that up I believe.

Someone in some post said the AC needed to be higher for the monsters. That doesn't make sense to me if the AC has been on par with what it has been in the past. It is that the combat system is not balanced correctly.

Melee rangers and monks as sliders are supposed to be more difficult to hit because of the dual weapons. The combat system doesn't take that into account at all.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Last edit: by jedibcg.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #40

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards


I think part of the problem is right here. These classes (in my opinion) should not all be lumped together into the damage focused classes.

All that the Barbarian, Monk, and the Fighters can do is deal damage. Nothing else. They literally have nothing they can actively do on their turn (barring consumables) to help the party.

Dwarf Fighter is close, as their Taunt doesn't require them to choose between taunting and attacking.

Rangers, Rogues, and Wizards all have other things they can as their primary action to help the party other than directly deal out damage.

Maybe the problem is that some portion of those other things don't scale well at the upper ends (or don't come into play for other reasons). And we should look at what needs to happen to make those more attractive so that people remember that their class does more than just direct damage.


I think your last point about the other things not scaling well at the upper end is valid. As an Elf Wizard, Alertness (Assuming you have the Staff of Power) is very useful to the party. Other than that, with everyone getting +30 to +50 bonus damage, Bull's Strength is a waste of time. Why should I give someone else +2 damage and give up doing at least 35 damage on my own? Who thinks turning invisible and just sitting out the fight is fun? Ironskin lets you ignore 5 pts of damage. At upper levels, who cares? It would probably have to let me ignore 25 points of damage to even make me consider using it. So honestly, (other than Alertness) high end wizards have nothing else to do but deal damage and then beg the paladin to guard them and/or clerics and druids to heal them because they cut themselves.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #41

Fiddy wrote: Rangers, Rogues, and Wizards all have other things they can as their primary action to help the party other than directly deal out damage.

What exactly are Rangers doing? The only non-combat action they have is using scrolls (and only the "All" ones which tend to be more thematic than useful), plus they gain a single heal spell and worthless AC boost at 5th level.

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Last edit: by Allen John.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #42

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards


I think part of the problem is right here. These classes (in my opinion) should not all be lumped together into the damage focused classes.

All that the Barbarian, Monk, and the Fighters can do is deal damage. Nothing else. They literally have nothing they can actively do on their turn (barring consumables) to help the party.

Dwarf Fighter is close, as their Taunt doesn't require them to choose between taunting and attacking.

Rangers, Rogues, and Wizards all have other things they can as their primary action to help the party other than directly deal out damage.

Maybe the problem is that some portion of those other things don't scale well at the upper ends (or don't come into play for other reasons). And we should look at what needs to happen to make those more attractive so that people remember that their class does more than just direct damage.


The fighter can use their reslide ability to knock around other pucks and test how “fast” the table is.

But I agree that fighter and monk have the worst support abilities.

I do not believe that the difference in support abilities among these classes is substantial enough to make it a good/desirable/healthy state for tokens that some of the classes deal so much more damage than others to the degree that adding ~15 UR more or better to one of the classes doesn’t overcome the gap.

I think your argument could be a good one to help explain why the three classes you mentioned should perhaps be the top of the damage tree - but not that any of them should be so far ahead of the others that playing up 1-3 rarity tiers doesn’t tend to overcome it.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #43

Dave wrote: Just catching up on this post. Here's my take given how often I spend calculating this stuff and playing an Elf Wizard. First, where I'm getting my spell damage from:

Drake's +5 Staff - 5 pts of damage
Relsa's Ring - 5 pts of damage
Boots of the Four Winds - 5 pts of damage
Earcuff of Inspiration - assume 4 pts of damage from Bard, but very often this past weekend I was only getting 3
Gregor's Tome - 2 pts of damage
Shirt of Focus - 2 pts of damage
IS Banshee Prism - 2 pts of damage
Lenses of Focus - 1 pt of damage
Bracelet of Cabal - 1 pt of damage
4 pc eldritch set - 3 pts of damage
I do equip the Cabal set (I'll explain why later)
I equip Ring of Spell Storing, but also equip Supreme Ring of Elemental Command - I give up 2 pts of damage per round doing this, so you can add that back in but I'm certain I was taking 50-100 less points of damage in V1 by equipping this ring and probably avoided death more than once in the process.
I do equip MEC
I also have the Crown of Expertise and Charm of Spell Swapping
Total damage per round is 32 (not sure how anyone can get to 40, you can swap the supreme ring for Greater Ring of Focus and swap Cabal Gloves for Blessed Tempest, but that only gets you to 37)
Also, I don't use MoMM because I need the charm necklace. (Avarice, Brooching, Spell Swapping, Awakened Synergy, Glory and Cabal are considered important charms and I have no other way to get to 6)

First, lets assume 3 combat rooms and 7 rounds of combat (very typical scenario in a real dungeon)
Room 1/Round 1 - 100 Use Cabal, cast Ray of Shock using MEC and Acid Ray - 61 for Ray of Shock (68 less 10% for chance of miss) plus 39 for Acid Ray (44 less 10% for miss chance)
Room 1/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 2/Round 1 - 104 Use Cabal, swap Ironskin for Ray of Shock using MEC and Magic Missile - 61 for Ray of Shock (less the 10%) plus 43 for Magic Missile
Room 2/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 3/Round 1 - 115 Use Cabal, cast Fireball using MEC and swap Invisibility for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 2 - 115 Use RoSS, cast Fireball using ring and MEC and swap Bull's Strength for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 3 - 72 Use Crown to cast Fireball with MEC

The total for 7 rounds comes to 614 pts of damage (about 88 pts per round). After 7 rounds, you're only left with Acid Splash's or Shocking Grasp for 38-44 pts of damage depending up whether or not you use MEC.

If you want to give up the Cabal set for Blessed Tempest Gloves you gain 7x3 or 21 pts of damage, but you lose the 2nd spell in the first round of every room and lose 125 pts of damage (Cabal = net gain of 104)

You can also gain 10 points if you go with the Greater Ring of Focus and dump the Supreme ring. You would add 14 more pts of damage but take more multiples of that. Also keep in mind you do 3 points of retribution with the supreme ring should you ever get hit.

Bottom line, it felt to me this weekend like I was holding my own, but very often the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Ranger were doing more damage.


I like your build and approach.

Do you find yourself running out of spells with Cabal?

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #44

I am not convinced in person that there is an issue here, sliding two tokens requires skill and with everyone else sliding, bumping tokens, etc, making crits and hits more difficult, which will bring their DPS down.

In virtual true dungeon I do think rangers and monks are a little broken. They crit too often and hit too often. I do not think the AC is the issue either. Its the 10+D10 which is getting added in each round. That gives a base 10% to miss, 10% to crit, and that is each hand on a ranger/monk. Use something with expanded crit range like Thor's hammer and suddenly your looking at a 20% chance for each hand. I will admit I have not done the math but it feels like they just need to be moved to using a pair of D20's instead. This will half the chance for a crit and actually give them a chance to roll something low enough for them to miss. Overall a huge nerf to DPS, and likely a lot closer to what they could produce in person.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #45

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards


I think part of the problem is right here. These classes (in my opinion) should not all be lumped together into the damage focused classes.

All that the Barbarian, Monk, and the Fighters can do is deal damage. Nothing else. They literally have nothing they can actively do on their turn (barring consumables) to help the party.

Dwarf Fighter is close, as their Taunt doesn't require them to choose between taunting and attacking.

Rangers, Rogues, and Wizards all have other things they can as their primary action to help the party other than directly deal out damage.

Maybe the problem is that some portion of those other things don't scale well at the upper ends (or don't come into play for other reasons). And we should look at what needs to happen to make those more attractive so that people remember that their class does more than just direct damage.


The fighter can use their redline ability to knock around other pucks and test how “fast” the table is.

But I agree that fighter and monk have the worst support abilities.

I do not believe that the difference in support abilities among these classes is substantial enough to make it a good/desirable/healthy state for tokens that some of the classes deal so much more damage than others to the degree that adding ~15 UR more or better to one of the classes doesn’t overcome the gap.

I think your argument could be a good one to help explain why the three classes you mentioned should perhaps be the top of the damage tree - but not that any of them should be so far ahead of the others that playing up 1-3 rarity tiers doesn’t tend to overcome it.


Oh - and I just remembered - Monks have dazing or stunning first and with Benrow’s it triggers in 19-20 - that is quite a good support ability.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #46

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote: Just catching up on this post. Here's my take given how often I spend calculating this stuff and playing an Elf Wizard. First, where I'm getting my spell damage from:

Drake's +5 Staff - 5 pts of damage
Relsa's Ring - 5 pts of damage
Boots of the Four Winds - 5 pts of damage
Earcuff of Inspiration - assume 4 pts of damage from Bard, but very often this past weekend I was only getting 3
Gregor's Tome - 2 pts of damage
Shirt of Focus - 2 pts of damage
IS Banshee Prism - 2 pts of damage
Lenses of Focus - 1 pt of damage
Bracelet of Cabal - 1 pt of damage
4 pc eldritch set - 3 pts of damage
I do equip the Cabal set (I'll explain why later)
I equip Ring of Spell Storing, but also equip Supreme Ring of Elemental Command - I give up 2 pts of damage per round doing this, so you can add that back in but I'm certain I was taking 50-100 less points of damage in V1 by equipping this ring and probably avoided death more than once in the process.
I do equip MEC
I also have the Crown of Expertise and Charm of Spell Swapping
Total damage per round is 32 (not sure how anyone can get to 40, you can swap the supreme ring for Greater Ring of Focus and swap Cabal Gloves for Blessed Tempest, but that only gets you to 37)
Also, I don't use MoMM because I need the charm necklace. (Avarice, Brooching, Spell Swapping, Awakened Synergy, Glory and Cabal are considered important charms and I have no other way to get to 6)

First, lets assume 3 combat rooms and 7 rounds of combat (very typical scenario in a real dungeon)
Room 1/Round 1 - 100 Use Cabal, cast Ray of Shock using MEC and Acid Ray - 61 for Ray of Shock (68 less 10% for chance of miss) plus 39 for Acid Ray (44 less 10% for miss chance)
Room 1/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 2/Round 1 - 104 Use Cabal, swap Ironskin for Ray of Shock using MEC and Magic Missile - 61 for Ray of Shock (less the 10%) plus 43 for Magic Missile
Room 2/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 3/Round 1 - 115 Use Cabal, cast Fireball using MEC and swap Invisibility for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 2 - 115 Use RoSS, cast Fireball using ring and MEC and swap Bull's Strength for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 3 - 72 Use Crown to cast Fireball with MEC

The total for 7 rounds comes to 614 pts of damage (about 88 pts per round). After 7 rounds, you're only left with Acid Splash's or Shocking Grasp for 38-44 pts of damage depending up whether or not you use MEC.

If you want to give up the Cabal set for Blessed Tempest Gloves you gain 7x3 or 21 pts of damage, but you lose the 2nd spell in the first round of every room and lose 125 pts of damage (Cabal = net gain of 104)

You can also gain 10 points if you go with the Greater Ring of Focus and dump the Supreme ring. You would add 14 more pts of damage but take more multiples of that. Also keep in mind you do 3 points of retribution with the supreme ring should you ever get hit.

Bottom line, it felt to me this weekend like I was holding my own, but very often the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Ranger were doing more damage.


I like your build and approach.

Do you find yourself running out of spells with Cabal?


In the last 100+ runs I have never run out of spells with Cabal. Twice I used up every spell on the card, but never ran out. Crown of Expertise, Ring of Spell Storing and Charm of Spell Swapping all help. This last weekend we actually had a fight go 6 rounds and I think I was down to 1 spell left, but the earlier fights only lasted a round or two.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #47

Dave wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote: Just catching up on this post. Here's my take given how often I spend calculating this stuff and playing an Elf Wizard. First, where I'm getting my spell damage from:

Drake's +5 Staff - 5 pts of damage
Relsa's Ring - 5 pts of damage
Boots of the Four Winds - 5 pts of damage
Earcuff of Inspiration - assume 4 pts of damage from Bard, but very often this past weekend I was only getting 3
Gregor's Tome - 2 pts of damage
Shirt of Focus - 2 pts of damage
IS Banshee Prism - 2 pts of damage
Lenses of Focus - 1 pt of damage
Bracelet of Cabal - 1 pt of damage
4 pc eldritch set - 3 pts of damage
I do equip the Cabal set (I'll explain why later)
I equip Ring of Spell Storing, but also equip Supreme Ring of Elemental Command - I give up 2 pts of damage per round doing this, so you can add that back in but I'm certain I was taking 50-100 less points of damage in V1 by equipping this ring and probably avoided death more than once in the process.
I do equip MEC
I also have the Crown of Expertise and Charm of Spell Swapping
Total damage per round is 32 (not sure how anyone can get to 40, you can swap the supreme ring for Greater Ring of Focus and swap Cabal Gloves for Blessed Tempest, but that only gets you to 37)
Also, I don't use MoMM because I need the charm necklace. (Avarice, Brooching, Spell Swapping, Awakened Synergy, Glory and Cabal are considered important charms and I have no other way to get to 6)

First, lets assume 3 combat rooms and 7 rounds of combat (very typical scenario in a real dungeon)
Room 1/Round 1 - 100 Use Cabal, cast Ray of Shock using MEC and Acid Ray - 61 for Ray of Shock (68 less 10% for chance of miss) plus 39 for Acid Ray (44 less 10% for miss chance)
Room 1/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 2/Round 1 - 104 Use Cabal, swap Ironskin for Ray of Shock using MEC and Magic Missile - 61 for Ray of Shock (less the 10%) plus 43 for Magic Missile
Room 2/Round 2 - 54 Magic Missile using MEC
Room 3/Round 1 - 115 Use Cabal, cast Fireball using MEC and swap Invisibility for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 2 - 115 Use RoSS, cast Fireball using ring and MEC and swap Bull's Strength for Magic Missile - 72 for Fireball and 43 for Magic Missile
Room 3/Round 3 - 72 Use Crown to cast Fireball with MEC

The total for 7 rounds comes to 614 pts of damage (about 88 pts per round). After 7 rounds, you're only left with Acid Splash's or Shocking Grasp for 38-44 pts of damage depending up whether or not you use MEC.

If you want to give up the Cabal set for Blessed Tempest Gloves you gain 7x3 or 21 pts of damage, but you lose the 2nd spell in the first round of every room and lose 125 pts of damage (Cabal = net gain of 104)

You can also gain 10 points if you go with the Greater Ring of Focus and dump the Supreme ring. You would add 14 more pts of damage but take more multiples of that. Also keep in mind you do 3 points of retribution with the supreme ring should you ever get hit.

Bottom line, it felt to me this weekend like I was holding my own, but very often the Barbarian, Monk, Rogue and Ranger were doing more damage.


I like your build and approach.

Do you find yourself running out of spells with Cabal?


In the last 100+ runs I have never run out of spells with Cabal. Twice I used up every spell on the card, but never ran out. Crown of Expertise, Ring of Spell Storing and Charm of Spell Swapping all help. This last weekend we actually had a fight go 6 rounds and I think I was down to 1 spell left, but the earlier fights only lasted a round or two.


Cool - maybe I’ll dust off the old canal set for my next runs!

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #48

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote: Damage isn’t the only factor though. SRoEC and greater holly ring add the same amount of melee damage, and yet the SRoEC is a much better token.

Measure fairly


Surely damage is the only factor with regard to evaluating damage. Which is what this thread is about (or at least what it started out about, and what I'm talking about).

I don't understand your comment on fair measurement. Can you please indicate what measure I have made that is unfair, and what about the measure makes you think it is not fair, and what a fair measure of the same entity would be?

My understanding of the core of your argument is that you are equipping a mix of Legendary, Eldrich, and Relic tokens totaling many $1000s, and are annoyned / upset that a different class with a single Legendary, Single Eldritch, and single Relic token (I'm leaving out TEs for this discussion) is equaling your damage.

The flaw in your argument, for me, is that a number of your Wizard's very expensive Legendary and Eldrich tokens are entirely defensive in nature and thus shouldn't count to your total of X expensive items in your build for a damage comparison. On the flip side 2/3 of the Monk items are offensive in nature and are near the highest possible boosts available.

You could dramatically reduce the cost of your build by making the following substitutions, while also potentially increasing your damage:

Head: Crown of Expertise -> Hat of Intellect
Ear 2: Earcuff of Orbits -> Earcuff of Inspiration
Neck: Medallion of Mystic Mouth -> Amulet of Shock
Back 1: Pharacus' Greater Cloak of Destiny -> Cloak of Painful Luck
Back 2: Cloak of the Mage -> drop due to loss of charm of brooching
Torso: Aron's Sunhide Robe -> Robe of Deftness
Wrists: Charm Bracelets -> Arcane Bracelets (nets a free spell)
Finger 2: Ring of Greater Focus -> Ring of Spell Storing
Finger 3: Supreme Ring of Elemental Command -> Ring of Heroism
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane (Constitution) -> Blighted Pants
Ioun Stone 7: Ioun Stone Sapphire Prism -> Beryl Prism
Charm 7: Questor's Charm of Luck -> Drop due to loss of Charm Bracelets
Charm 3: Charm of Brooching -> Drop due to loss of Charm Bracelets
Special 8: Rod of Seven Parts (Complete) -> drop

That removes 2 Legendaries, 3 Eldrich and should have a very similar damage profile. Drop both legendary focus items to relics, and you could have a minimal damage loss and have fewer legendaries than the Monk build.

TL;DR, drop your defensive items and the cost comparisons will be a lot closer.

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