Endgame wrote:
Matthew Hayward wrote:
Endgame wrote: Damage isn’t the only factor though. SRoEC and greater holly ring add the same amount of melee damage, and yet the SRoEC is a much better token.
Measure fairly
Surely damage is the only factor with regard to evaluating damage. Which is what this thread is about (or at least what it started out about, and what I'm talking about).
I don't understand your comment on fair measurement. Can you please indicate what measure I have made that is unfair, and what about the measure makes you think it is not fair, and what a fair measure of the same entity would be?
Thanks for engaging. Maybe I can try to clear some things up. I'm not even sure we're in disagreement about much.
My understanding of the core of your argument is that you are equipping a mix of Legendary, Eldrich, and Relic tokens totaling many $1000s, and are annoyned / upset that a different class with a single Legendary, Single Eldritch, and single Relic token (I'm leaving out TEs for this discussion) is equaling your damage.
That's not what my argument is. I haven't mentioned cost or dollar amounts at any point in this thread.
I also haven't expressed that I'm "annoyed" or "upset." I have tried to express that I think we have evidence of something wrong with the goodness/desirability/healthyness of tokens presently.
It took me a while to refine my notion above into something clear, and it wasn't expressed in the first post. I've put what I think I'm driving at at the bottom of this reponse.
The flaw in your argument, for me, is that a number of your Wizard's very expensive Legendary and Eldrich tokens are entirely defensive in nature and thus shouldn't count to your total of X expensive items in your build for a damage comparison. On the flip side 2/3 of the Monk items are offensive in nature and are near the highest possible boosts available.
I was not trying to make any claims or perform any analysis relative to any of the defensive tokens in either build.
You can see in the first post under the Builds section where I say:
Matthew Hayward wrote: (Note, some of the builds have non-combat tokens that aren't counted above, like Bead of the Lucky Traveler or Charm of Avarice)
When I refer to the Wizard BiS build as having "4 Eldritch pieces, 3 Legendaries, a Relic, and ~8 spell boosting URs" - I'm only referring to the spell damage boosting tokens in the build listed on post 1.
That build actually has 5 legendaries, 4 Eldritch, 4 relics, and around 27 URs total.
But only the 4 Eldricth, 3 Legendaries, 1 relic, and 8 spell boosting URs are what I've been discussing and analyzing. I've been ignoring the other tokens for this discussion.
To reiterate:
I'm comparing a monk geared with rare combat boosting tokens, and Benrows, KoDB (STR), and Enchanter's Whetstone (thanks for spotting that Phil!) with a Wizard with 3 legendaries, 4 Eltritch, a relic, and 8 URs (and a few rares probably) that boost spells.
I'm ignoring all non-combat boosting Monk tokens, and all non-spell boosing Wizard tokens.
You could dramatically reduce the cost of your build by making the following substitutions, while also potentially increasing your damage:
Head: Crown of Expertise -> Hat of Intellect
Ear 2: Earcuff of Orbits -> Earcuff of Inspiration
Neck: Medallion of Mystic Mouth -> Amulet of Shock
Back 1: Pharacus' Greater Cloak of Destiny -> Cloak of Painful Luck
Back 2: Cloak of the Mage -> drop due to loss of charm of brooching
Torso: Aron's Sunhide Robe -> Robe of Deftness
Wrists: Charm Bracelets -> Arcane Bracelets (nets a free spell)
Finger 2: Ring of Greater Focus -> Ring of Spell Storing
Finger 3: Supreme Ring of Elemental Command -> Ring of Heroism
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane (Constitution) -> Blighted Pants
Ioun Stone 7: Ioun Stone Sapphire Prism -> Beryl Prism
Charm 7: Questor's Charm of Luck -> Drop due to loss of Charm Bracelets
Charm 3: Charm of Brooching -> Drop due to loss of Charm Bracelets
Special 8: Rod of Seven Parts (Complete) -> drop
That removes 2 Legendaries, 3 Eldrich and should have a very similar damage profile. Drop both legendary focus items to relics, and you could have a minimal damage loss and have fewer legendaries than the Monk build.
TL;DR, drop your defensive items and the cost comparisons will be a lot closer.
While I'm not focusing on cost, you're absolutely right that these tokens could be swapped into the build to make it cheaper without reducing damage much.
Hopefully it's now a bit more clear what I'm
not trying to address (cost, defensive tokens in builds).
Let's move on to
what I am trying to address:
I'm trying to see if you (and others) agree with the argument below. If you disagree, I'm curious which premise (or both) you find faulty:
Premise 1:
Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards
And considering two builds which are both focusing on damage output.
* One of which, call it "Type A", has rares and 2 high tier tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 4
* One of which, call it "Type B", has ~7 Legendary or Eldritch, ~1 Relic, and ~8 URs tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 5
It not a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation if a character of Type A has similar or greater damage output than a character of Type B.
Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.
Conclusion:
In VTD, it is not currently a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation.