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TOPIC: Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #49

Allen John wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Rangers, Rogues, and Wizards all have other things they can as their primary action to help the party other than directly deal out damage.

What exactly are Rangers doing? The only non-combat action they have is using scrolls (and only the "All" ones which tend to be more thematic than useful), plus they gain a single heal spell and worthless AC boost at 5th level.


They can also use Carter's time to recast one of those spells ;)

I don't know if you missed the next sentence I wrote after the one you quoted:

Maybe the problem is that some portion of those other things don't scale well at the upper ends (or don't come into play for other reasons).


The fact that you find those spells useless sounds to me like the scaling issue I mentioned is exactly what you are saying.

And sure, Rangers have fewer extra options than Wizards, but still more potential ways to help the party than Barbarians, Monks, and Fighters.

Maybe it would make sense to have some tokens that allow non-healing spells to affect additional allies depending on rarity? And/or maybe a token that doubles/triples the effect of a non-healing spell cast on allies?

Would Bull's Strength be more interesting if the Elf Wizard could cast it for +8 or +12 strength on the whole party with the appropriate tokens?

How about a Ranger casting Barkskin on the whole party for +6 AC?

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #50

Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.

TD has been making it a point to have multiple opponents in at least 1 room in most runs for the past couple years. That alone makes wizard invaluable.

Beyond just the multi-opponent benefit, Wizard is a tremendous battlefield control character. Lesser Maze can be used, against a single opponent, to restart the combat - usually allowing a party another complete round of attacks before the solo monster can respond. That contributes approximately 500 damage just from that one spell.

As someone who has a fully built out wizard (that reminds me to update my wizard build in this sig with my sparkling new (to me) cabal set and a few other damage boosts), I am completely ok with my Rogue build doing more damage against solo creatures.

I would also argue that a top end monk build is similar in cost to a top end wizard build. 2 +5 strike fangs, a legendary robe, legendary necklace, legendary belt, and a legendary cloak is a pretty hefty cost (removing RoSP, BoFW, and Kilt since all top-end classes will have those.) A maxed out Monk has $6k-$7k in just legendaries then a few ultra-rares that a wizard wouldn't need.

My guess is the most expensive classes to build are: Monk/Wizard (similar in cost) then Paladin and maybe rogue. My guess is the least expensive build is legendary bard to be competitive for top end. When the new legendaries come out for fighter, they will likely get near paladin.
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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #51

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: First question:
Why didn't you add the wand damage per round? You have two UR's (MoMM, ISFC) dedicated to wand usage that add 11-12 damage per round if you are a human wizard. That's quite a bit of damage (77-84) to leave out of the analysis.

What is the main point of this thread? I can draw several arguments, but is it:

  • Nerf monks?
  • Buff Wizards?
  • 1d10+10 is an inaccurate system?
  • Putting a class legendary on a rare character is lol?
  • Wizard legendary should be amazing?
  • Anything about any other classes?


I didn't add wand damage because I never add consumables in when doing damage calculations, as not everyone has the desire or ability to use them. If we were to consider consumables, one could easily adjust things around by doing something like: Drop Kilt of Dungeonbane, Add Pants of the Oaf, Add Pouch of Tulz, drink Bull's Strength and use melee Runestones to add +1/+2 to all the Monk stuff while downgrading an Eltritch token for a UR.

But such fine tuning is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make in this thread.

The main point of this thread is:

Premise 1:
Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards
And considering two builds which are both focusing on damage output.

* One of which, call it "Type A", has rares and 2 high tier tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 4

* One of which, call it "Type B", has ~7 Legendary or Eldritch, ~1 Relic, and ~8 URs tokens focues on damage and is playing at level 5

It not a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation if a character of Type A has similar or greater damage output than a character of Type B.

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.

Conclusion:
In VTD, it is not currently a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation.

As to what should be done about it - many things could be done about it.

But one would only be motivated to do anything if they agreed with Premise 1 and Premise 2 - and further if they want the token situation to be good/desirable/long term healthy.

Okay, so now the monk has pouch of tulz for potion drinking, so you're changing the variables and adding URs to the monk. And, using your numbers and math for potions and wands, the wizard still comes out ahead on damage with the option to drink utility/defensive potions.

The monk stats you chose in this scenario (including bard song and that equipped Enchanter's Whetstone you didn't mention) are almost fined-tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25 on a minimum roll of 2 on the d10 (2+10). This completely goes out the window on the last fight on nightmare, which I believe had 35 AC. The monk should have missed almost the entire time on that last fight, or they were lying.

Not to mention with a ranged-to-hit of 5 that monk would have been almost useless in a ranged encounter.

That monk also has 33 hp and 18 AC.

This is too much cherry picking of variables for me to recognize this as a valid argument.

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.
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Last edit: by Philip Goodman.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #52

I was made aware the AC of the final fight was 28 and not 35.

Could have sworn that it said 35 on the screen in my dungeon.

So it may have been more possible for an impressive performance by this monk. That said, 35 AC has been seen in dungeons before and would have left this monk quite ineffective.
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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #53

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: First question:
Why didn't you add the wand damage per round? You have two UR's (MoMM, ISFC) dedicated to wand usage that add 11-12 damage per round if you are a human wizard. That's quite a bit of damage (77-84) to leave out of the analysis.

What is the main point of this thread? I can draw several arguments, but is it:

  • Nerf monks?
  • Buff Wizards?
  • 1d10+10 is an inaccurate system?
  • Putting a class legendary on a rare character is lol?
  • Wizard legendary should be amazing?
  • Anything about any other classes?


I didn't add wand damage because I never add consumables in when doing damage calculations, as not everyone has the desire or ability to use them. If we were to consider consumables, one could easily adjust things around by doing something like: Drop Kilt of Dungeonbane, Add Pants of the Oaf, Add Pouch of Tulz, drink Bull's Strength and use melee Runestones to add +1/+2 to all the Monk stuff while downgrading an Eltritch token for a UR.

But such fine tuning is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make in this thread.

The main point of this thread is:

Premise 1:
Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards
And considering two builds which are both focusing on damage output.

* One of which, call it "Type A", has rares and 2 high tier tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 4

* One of which, call it "Type B", has ~7 Legendary or Eldritch, ~1 Relic, and ~8 URs tokens focues on damage and is playing at level 5

It not a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation if a character of Type A has similar or greater damage output than a character of Type B.

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.

Conclusion:
In VTD, it is not currently a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation.

As to what should be done about it - many things could be done about it.

But one would only be motivated to do anything if they agreed with Premise 1 and Premise 2 - and further if they want the token situation to be good/desirable/long term healthy.

Okay, so now the monk has pouch of tulz for potion drinking, so you're changing the variables and adding URs to the monk. And, using your numbers and math for potions and wands, the wizard still comes out ahead on damage with the option to drink utility/defensive potions.

The monk stats you chose in this scenario (including bard song and that equipped Enchanter's Whetstone you didn't mention) are almost fined-tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25 on a minimum roll of 2 on the d10 (2+10). This completely goes out the window on the last fight on nightmare, which I believe had 35 AC. The monk should have missed almost the entire time on that last fight, or they were lying.

Not to mention with a ranged-to-hit of 5 that monk would have been almost useless in a ranged encounter.

That monk also has 33 hp and 18 AC.

This is too much cherry picking of variables for me to recognize this as a valid argument.

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.


This Monk build isn't "fine tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25...". This is an actual build my party actually runs in the dungeon, and was created before VTD was a gleam in Jeff's eye.

You say don't don't recognize this as a valid argument - I think you mean you don't find it sound?

I believe the argument is valid. I believe it has the valid syllogistic form of: A implies B. A is true. Therefore B is true.

Which of the two premises do you reject? Or do you reject both of them?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #54

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Endgame wrote: Damage isn’t the only factor though. SRoEC and greater holly ring add the same amount of melee damage, and yet the SRoEC is a much better token.

Measure fairly


Surely damage is the only factor with regard to evaluating damage. Which is what this thread is about (or at least what it started out about, and what I'm talking about).

I don't understand your comment on fair measurement. Can you please indicate what measure I have made that is unfair, and what about the measure makes you think it is not fair, and what a fair measure of the same entity would be?


Thanks for engaging. Maybe I can try to clear some things up. I'm not even sure we're in disagreement about much.

My understanding of the core of your argument is that you are equipping a mix of Legendary, Eldrich, and Relic tokens totaling many $1000s, and are annoyned / upset that a different class with a single Legendary, Single Eldritch, and single Relic token (I'm leaving out TEs for this discussion) is equaling your damage.


That's not what my argument is. I haven't mentioned cost or dollar amounts at any point in this thread.

I also haven't expressed that I'm "annoyed" or "upset." I have tried to express that I think we have evidence of something wrong with the goodness/desirability/healthyness of tokens presently.

It took me a while to refine my notion above into something clear, and it wasn't expressed in the first post. I've put what I think I'm driving at at the bottom of this reponse.

The flaw in your argument, for me, is that a number of your Wizard's very expensive Legendary and Eldrich tokens are entirely defensive in nature and thus shouldn't count to your total of X expensive items in your build for a damage comparison. On the flip side 2/3 of the Monk items are offensive in nature and are near the highest possible boosts available.


I was not trying to make any claims or perform any analysis relative to any of the defensive tokens in either build.

You can see in the first post under the Builds section where I say:

Matthew Hayward wrote: (Note, some of the builds have non-combat tokens that aren't counted above, like Bead of the Lucky Traveler or Charm of Avarice)


When I refer to the Wizard BiS build as having "4 Eldritch pieces, 3 Legendaries, a Relic, and ~8 spell boosting URs" - I'm only referring to the spell damage boosting tokens in the build listed on post 1.

That build actually has 5 legendaries, 4 Eldritch, 4 relics, and around 27 URs total.

But only the 4 Eldricth, 3 Legendaries, 1 relic, and 8 spell boosting URs are what I've been discussing and analyzing. I've been ignoring the other tokens for this discussion.

To reiterate:

I'm comparing a monk geared with rare combat boosting tokens, and Benrows, KoDB (STR), and Enchanter's Whetstone (thanks for spotting that Phil!) with a Wizard with 3 legendaries, 4 Eltritch, a relic, and 8 URs (and a few rares probably) that boost spells.

I'm ignoring all non-combat boosting Monk tokens, and all non-spell boosing Wizard tokens.

You could dramatically reduce the cost of your build by making the following substitutions, while also potentially increasing your damage:

Head: Crown of Expertise -> Hat of Intellect
Ear 2: Earcuff of Orbits -> Earcuff of Inspiration
Neck: Medallion of Mystic Mouth -> Amulet of Shock
Back 1: Pharacus' Greater Cloak of Destiny -> Cloak of Painful Luck
Back 2: Cloak of the Mage -> drop due to loss of charm of brooching
Torso: Aron's Sunhide Robe -> Robe of Deftness
Wrists: Charm Bracelets -> Arcane Bracelets (nets a free spell)
Finger 2: Ring of Greater Focus -> Ring of Spell Storing
Finger 3: Supreme Ring of Elemental Command -> Ring of Heroism
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane (Constitution) -> Blighted Pants
Ioun Stone 7: Ioun Stone Sapphire Prism -> Beryl Prism
Charm 7: Questor's Charm of Luck -> Drop due to loss of Charm Bracelets
Charm 3: Charm of Brooching -> Drop due to loss of Charm Bracelets
Special 8: Rod of Seven Parts (Complete) -> drop

That removes 2 Legendaries, 3 Eldrich and should have a very similar damage profile. Drop both legendary focus items to relics, and you could have a minimal damage loss and have fewer legendaries than the Monk build.

TL;DR, drop your defensive items and the cost comparisons will be a lot closer.


While I'm not focusing on cost, you're absolutely right that these tokens could be swapped into the build to make it cheaper without reducing damage much.

Hopefully it's now a bit more clear what I'm not trying to address (cost, defensive tokens in builds).

Let's move on to what I am trying to address:

I'm trying to see if you (and others) agree with the argument below. If you disagree, I'm curious which premise (or both) you find faulty:

Premise 1:
Considering the damage focused classes: Barbarian, Fighters, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Wizards
And considering two builds which are both focusing on damage output.

* One of which, call it "Type A", has rares and 2 high tier tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 4

* One of which, call it "Type B", has ~7 Legendary or Eldritch, ~1 Relic, and ~8 URs tokens focused on damage and is playing at level 5

It not a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation if a character of Type A has similar or greater damage output than a character of Type B.

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.

Conclusion:
In VTD, it is not currently a good/desirable/long term healthy token situation.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #55

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #56

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Okay, so now the monk has pouch of tulz for potion drinking, so you're changing the variables and adding URs to the monk. And, using your numbers and math for potions and wands, the wizard still comes out ahead on damage with the option to drink utility/defensive potions.

The monk stats you chose in this scenario (including bard song and that equipped Enchanter's Whetstone you didn't mention) are almost fined-tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25 on a minimum roll of 2 on the d10 (2+10). This completely goes out the window on the last fight on nightmare, which I believe had 35 AC. The monk should have missed almost the entire time on that last fight, or they were lying.

Not to mention with a ranged-to-hit of 5 that monk would have been almost useless in a ranged encounter.

That monk also has 33 hp and 18 AC.

This is too much cherry picking of variables for me to recognize this as a valid argument.

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.


This Monk build isn't "fine tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25...". This is an actual build my party actually runs in the dungeon, and was created before VTD was a gleam in Jeff's eye.

You say don't don't recognize this as a valid argument - I think you mean you don't find it sound?

I believe the argument is valid. I believe it has the valid syllogistic form of: A implies B. A is true. Therefore B is true.

Which of the two premises do you reject? Or do you reject both of them?

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #57

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Okay, so now the monk has pouch of tulz for potion drinking, so you're changing the variables and adding URs to the monk. And, using your numbers and math for potions and wands, the wizard still comes out ahead on damage with the option to drink utility/defensive potions.

The monk stats you chose in this scenario (including bard song and that equipped Enchanter's Whetstone you didn't mention) are almost fined-tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25 on a minimum roll of 2 on the d10 (2+10). This completely goes out the window on the last fight on nightmare, which I believe had 35 AC. The monk should have missed almost the entire time on that last fight, or they were lying.

Not to mention with a ranged-to-hit of 5 that monk would have been almost useless in a ranged encounter.

That monk also has 33 hp and 18 AC.

This is too much cherry picking of variables for me to recognize this as a valid argument.

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.


This Monk build isn't "fine tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25...". This is an actual build my party actually runs in the dungeon, and was created before VTD was a gleam in Jeff's eye.

You say don't don't recognize this as a valid argument - I think you mean you don't find it sound?

I believe the argument is valid. I believe it has the valid syllogistic form of: A implies B. A is true. Therefore B is true.

Which of the two premises do you reject? Or do you reject both of them?

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.


Not that Matthew needs it, but if the wizards gets wands, the monk gets potion of brawn and/or Bull's Strength, added to both attacks.
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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #58

Wade Schwendemann wrote:
Not that Matthew needs it, but if the wizards gets wands, the monk gets potion of brawn and/or Bull's Strength, added to both attacks.


This was already mentioned.

11 or 12 damage a round for wands, which the wizard is equipped for, does not equate to the 4 damage a round the monk *might* get, and is not equipped for (no pouch of tulz or free action drinking).

Running the numbers including wands and bull pots results in the wizard winning.

There's also the assumption we're fighting zero ranged encounters and that the creatures in VTD were crit vulnerable

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


And this also assumes we're also fighting always at 25 AC. Anything higher and that monk misses attacks.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
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Last edit: by Philip Goodman.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #59

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Okay, so now the monk has pouch of tulz for potion drinking, so you're changing the variables and adding URs to the monk. And, using your numbers and math for potions and wands, the wizard still comes out ahead on damage with the option to drink utility/defensive potions.

The monk stats you chose in this scenario (including bard song and that equipped Enchanter's Whetstone you didn't mention) are almost fined-tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25 on a minimum roll of 2 on the d10 (2+10). This completely goes out the window on the last fight on nightmare, which I believe had 35 AC. The monk should have missed almost the entire time on that last fight, or they were lying.

Not to mention with a ranged-to-hit of 5 that monk would have been almost useless in a ranged encounter.

That monk also has 33 hp and 18 AC.

This is too much cherry picking of variables for me to recognize this as a valid argument.

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.


This Monk build isn't "fine tuned exactly to hit the AC of 25...". This is an actual build my party actually runs in the dungeon, and was created before VTD was a gleam in Jeff's eye.

You say don't don't recognize this as a valid argument - I think you mean you don't find it sound?

I believe the argument is valid. I believe it has the valid syllogistic form of: A implies B. A is true. Therefore B is true.

Which of the two premises do you reject? Or do you reject both of them?

I do not agree that various factors, including wand damage, should be ignored in this comparison, nor do I agree that the factors chosen are an accurate average representation of the game. As such, I don't agree with premise 2.


Premise 2 says:

Premise 2:
In VTD, a Monk of type A has similar or greater damage output than a Wizard of type B.


If there is any, even one, Monk build of type A that deals similar or more damage to any, even one, Wizard build of type B then Premise 2 holds.

I don't think I'm making progress convincing you that this is the case, so I'm going to give it a pass.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though - always interesting to see how other people think about it.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #60

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


A cabal wizard can drop 40/round on an entire group of opponents plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. Against 4 opponents, that is 190 damage total just round one. Assume you move to 2nd level spells round two, that is 30 to the entire group plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. This would add another 180 damage. Two rounds results in the wizard doing 370 damage. No other class can come close to this. Even if it were only 3 opponents, we're still looking at 260 damage in 2 rounds.

This is before using lesser maze (arguably doing far more damage as it can allow an entire group a full extra round of attacks.)

Fred
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