Matthew Hayward wrote: If there is any, even one, Monk build of type A that deals similar or more damage to any, even one, Wizard build of type B then Premise 2 holds.
I don't think I'm making progress convincing you that this is the case, so I'm going to give it a pass.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts though - always interesting to see how other people think about it.
You haven't provided a realistic scenario where this is actually the case yet.
Let's evaluate the VTD dungeon. 8 rounds. 2 per enemy.
The AC and crit vulnerability of the first two and last two fights are the same.
I'll also use the alternative build you argued for that included pouch of tulz free action potion drinking and +1 damage runestone:
If we were to consider consumables, one could easily adjust things around by doing something like: Drop Kilt of Dungeonbane, Add Pants of the Oaf, Add Pouch of Tulz, drink Bull's Strength and use melee Runestones to add +1/+2 to all the Monk stuff while downgrading an Eltritch token for a UR.
Melee: 12 to hit, 21 damage
Bard song +2/+4, as you stated. Additional +2/+2 from bull's strength. So melee: 16 to hit, 27 damage
Each puck has an average damage of 27 + 4.16 (weapon average) = 31.16
First four rounds: 25 AC, no crit immunity
* A 10% chance of missing (roll of 1 on 1d10)
* A 20% chance of critting (roll of 9, 10 on 1d10)
* A 70% chance of hitting (16+10+roll of 2-8 all hit)
4*2*.7*31.16 (hits) + 4*2*2*.2*31.16 (crits)
174.496 + 99.712 = 274.208 damage
Last four rounds: 28 AC, crit immunity
* A 10% chance of missing (roll of 1 on 1d10)
* A 90% chance of hitting (16+10+roll of 2-8 all hit)
4*2*.9*31.16 (hits)
224.352 damage
Total monk damage:
498.56
Wizard:
Using Wand of Force Spike (7 damage) or Wand of Soul Spike (8 damage).
Human wizard (+2 damage).
ISFC is equipped (+2 damage).
MoMM equipped (wand as free action).
Result:
11-12 damage from wand every round.
1. MeC doubled Lightning Storm = 2*20+33 = 73
2. MeC doubled Lightning Storm from Crown of Expertise = 2*20+33 = 73
3. MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray (10% miss chance) = (2*18+33)*.9 = 62.1
4. MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray (10% miss chance) = (2*18+33)*.9 = 62.1
5. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
6. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
7. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
8. You're wearing the CoSS token and you're not using it yet. Pick either Lesser Maze or Cat's Grace to spell swap.
- MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray (10% miss chance) = (2*18+33)*.9 = 62.1
- MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
Subtotal before wands (8 rounds):
490.2 - 497.2
Total wand damage (8 rounds, 11 pts to 12 pts per round depending on wand):
88 - 96
Total Wizard damage:
578.2 - 593.2
Total monk damage:
498.56
The monk does not win.
These values are not close enough for me to consider this monk's and wizard's damage "similar".
I'd like to point out this monk:
- starts missing the second that he/she stops chugging bull's strength potions.
- starts missing on any AC higher than 28.
- has a +6 to hit at range including bard song. +8 with chugging cat's grace potions. I doubt this will hit anything.
- is incredibly squishy for nightmare. 29 hp, 17 AC, 9/10/16 saves.
If we're pretending wands don't exist, AC isn't a factor, crit immunity isn't a common enemy trait, non-melee encounter don't exist, and defensive aren't valuable, then we're not playing true dungeon anymore.
I figure that this isn't enough to convince you off your argument. I imagine that you could shuffle around the tokens on the monk some more, toss in a few more URs on the monk, and change the variables of the argument again into something that results in a more favorable damage comparison. But then it's less and less like a "rare monk".
I don't even disagree with your main points -- you can see my earlier post where I agree monks are stronger than they need to be in the current environment and wizards could use some help. Some of it is related to VTD calculations, some of it game design, and some of it token pool.
I mostly have issue with this specific example that you are presented as "rare monk with a legendary is stronger than BiS wizard" and it's simply not realistically true. It seems like misleading clickbait meant to spark outrage at the magnitude of class imbalance, and the class imbalance does not actually exist to this ridiculous degree.
I'm all for discussion on topics for how to fix these items for a healthier game, but I'm not interested in rallying behind an untruthful exaggeration to leverage change.