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TOPIC: Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #61

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Re: Spoiler - depending on the run it was 3, 4, or 5 creatures with separate hp's for each.

Fred
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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #62

Matthew Hayward wrote: If there is any, even one, Monk build of type A that deals similar or more damage to any, even one, Wizard build of type B then Premise 2 holds.

I don't think I'm making progress convincing you that this is the case, so I'm going to give it a pass.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though - always interesting to see how other people think about it.

You haven't provided a realistic scenario where this is actually the case yet.

Let's evaluate the VTD dungeon. 8 rounds. 2 per enemy.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


I'll also use the alternative build you argued for that included pouch of tulz free action potion drinking and +1 damage runestone:

If we were to consider consumables, one could easily adjust things around by doing something like: Drop Kilt of Dungeonbane, Add Pants of the Oaf, Add Pouch of Tulz, drink Bull's Strength and use melee Runestones to add +1/+2 to all the Monk stuff while downgrading an Eltritch token for a UR.


Melee: 12 to hit, 21 damage

Bard song +2/+4, as you stated. Additional +2/+2 from bull's strength. So melee: 16 to hit, 27 damage

Each puck has an average damage of 27 + 4.16 (weapon average) = 31.16

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Wizard:

Using Wand of Force Spike (7 damage) or Wand of Soul Spike (8 damage).
Human wizard (+2 damage).
ISFC is equipped (+2 damage).
MoMM equipped (wand as free action).
Result:
11-12 damage from wand every round.


1. MeC doubled Lightning Storm = 2*20+33 = 73
2. MeC doubled Lightning Storm from Crown of Expertise = 2*20+33 = 73
3. MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray (10% miss chance) = (2*18+33)*.9 = 62.1
4. MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray (10% miss chance) = (2*18+33)*.9 = 62.1
5. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
6. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
7. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
8. You're wearing the CoSS token and you're not using it yet. Pick either Lesser Maze or Cat's Grace to spell swap.
  • MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray (10% miss chance) = (2*18+33)*.9 = 62.1
  • MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55

Subtotal before wands (8 rounds):
490.2 - 497.2

Total wand damage (8 rounds, 11 pts to 12 pts per round depending on wand):
88 - 96

Total Wizard damage:
578.2 - 593.2

Total monk damage:
498.56

The monk does not win.

These values are not close enough for me to consider this monk's and wizard's damage "similar".

I'd like to point out this monk:
  • starts missing the second that he/she stops chugging bull's strength potions.
  • starts missing on any AC higher than 28.
  • has a +6 to hit at range including bard song. +8 with chugging cat's grace potions. I doubt this will hit anything.
  • is incredibly squishy for nightmare. 29 hp, 17 AC, 9/10/16 saves.

If we're pretending wands don't exist, AC isn't a factor, crit immunity isn't a common enemy trait, non-melee encounter don't exist, and defensive aren't valuable, then we're not playing true dungeon anymore.

I figure that this isn't enough to convince you off your argument. I imagine that you could shuffle around the tokens on the monk some more, toss in a few more URs on the monk, and change the variables of the argument again into something that results in a more favorable damage comparison. But then it's less and less like a "rare monk".

I don't even disagree with your main points -- you can see my earlier post where I agree monks are stronger than they need to be in the current environment and wizards could use some help. Some of it is related to VTD calculations, some of it game design, and some of it token pool.

I mostly have issue with this specific example that you are presented as "rare monk with a legendary is stronger than BiS wizard" and it's simply not realistically true. It seems like misleading clickbait meant to spark outrage at the magnitude of class imbalance, and the class imbalance does not actually exist to this ridiculous degree.

I'm all for discussion on topics for how to fix these items for a healthier game, but I'm not interested in rallying behind an untruthful exaggeration to leverage change.
Playing True Dungeon since 2012.

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Last edit: by Philip Goodman.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #63

I am always surprised the amount of thought that goes into these kinds of situations. I never see the big deal if one class does more damage then another. Even if their level of tokens are not equal. It just seems like people are salty that their build isn't better because they spent more money or something along those lines. Just play what character you want and enjoy the game.
Paladin of the one true God.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #64

Fred K wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


A cabal wizard can drop 40/round on an entire group of opponents plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. Against 4 opponents, that is 190 damage total just round one. Assume you move to 2nd level spells round two, that is 30 to the entire group plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. This would add another 180 damage. Two rounds results in the wizard doing 370 damage. No other class can come close to this. Even if it were only 3 opponents, we're still looking at 260 damage in 2 rounds.

This is before using lesser maze (arguably doing far more damage as it can allow an entire group a full extra round of attacks.)

Fred


Thanks for clarifying.

I see that your scenario involves 4 targets that can be hit by AoE spells.

In that case wizards will deal a lot of damage.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #65

Fred K wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Re: Spoiler - depending on the run it was 3, 4, or 5 creatures with separate hp's for each.

Fred


Interesting - we ran hardcore and the DM didn’t make it clear we were facing different HP Entities (or I didn’t notice - which is likely :) ).

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #66

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


A cabal wizard can drop 40/round on an entire group of opponents plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. Against 4 opponents, that is 190 damage total just round one. Assume you move to 2nd level spells round two, that is 30 to the entire group plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. This would add another 180 damage. Two rounds results in the wizard doing 370 damage. No other class can come close to this. Even if it were only 3 opponents, we're still looking at 260 damage in 2 rounds.

This is before using lesser maze (arguably doing far more damage as it can allow an entire group a full extra round of attacks.)

Fred


Thanks for clarifying.

I see that your scenario involves 4 targets that can be hit by AoE spells.

In that case wizards will deal a lot of damage.


I can't say I can remember a single combat in the last 5 years that included 3 enemies, let alone 5.

I think on average we see one multi target fight every 2.5 years.

So that's like 1 per 5 dungeons give or take?

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #67

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: Replying to an earlier comment, I'm making the case that different classes have different functions.

I don't believe wizard should do the most damage against solo opponents. Monks and Rangers are the damage kings for solo opponents followed by rogue and barbarian (depending on the math, you flip those two).

When it comes to multiple opponents, excluding cheese (which I happily got to try for the first time this weekend for a rogue area effect attack), wizard is definitely the king. The final room had multiple opponents this time. Against that room, a wizard will more than double the overall damage than any other class.


I don't think this is accurate.

Lightning Storm or Fireball add 20 per target.
Burning hands add 9 per target.

What scenario do you have in mind where a wizard will "double the overall damage of any other class" by gaining 20 damage per target? And is that overall damage being doubled over the total dungeon, or one room, or one round in your scenario?

Also...

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


A cabal wizard can drop 40/round on an entire group of opponents plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. Against 4 opponents, that is 190 damage total just round one. Assume you move to 2nd level spells round two, that is 30 to the entire group plus another 60 damage in bonus damage. This would add another 180 damage. Two rounds results in the wizard doing 370 damage. No other class can come close to this. Even if it were only 3 opponents, we're still looking at 260 damage in 2 rounds.

This is before using lesser maze (arguably doing far more damage as it can allow an entire group a full extra round of attacks.)

Fred


Thanks for clarifying.

I see that your scenario involves 4 targets that can be hit by AoE spells.

In that case wizards will deal a lot of damage.


I can't say I can remember a single combat in the last 5 years that included 3 enemies, let alone 5.

I think on average we see one multi target fight every 2.5 years.

So that's like 1 per 5 dungeons give or take?

There were 5x scraels in moon gate, right?

N series had at least 2 dungeons with 2 monsters (giants and uhh winged things)

E series had at least One combat with 2 (e3 room 7).

As long as I’ve been playing, I believe there has always been at least 1 room with 2+ monsters per convention

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #68

The scraels with the queen in the last room was 3 wasn't it?
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #69

jedibcg wrote: The scraels with the queen in the last room was 3 wasn't it?

There was a separate room where they dropped out of the ceiling and onto your backs. I thought that room was 5?

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #70

Endgame wrote:

jedibcg wrote: The scraels with the queen in the last room was 3 wasn't it?

There was a separate room where they dropped out of the ceiling and onto your backs. I thought that room was 5?

Yes, but I am talking about the final room with the queen spider. That had 2 and the queen didn't it?
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Last edit: by jedibcg.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #71

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote:

jedibcg wrote: The scraels with the queen in the last room was 3 wasn't it?

There was a separate room where they dropped out of the ceiling and onto your backs. I thought that room was 5?

Yes, but I am talking about the final room with the queen. That had 2 and the queen didn't it?

sounds right. I would have to check the module to confirm though

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 3 years 7 months ago #72

All of these above examples are correct.

Scrael
Scrael queen +2 scrael

Hellkyries
Frost Giants

Blackthorn and Mind Slayer.....
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