TOPIC: FINAL Big Change to Powers Available on the Mark of Enlightenment

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I would be fine removing the extra ear slot if we also removed the must choose at creation restriction

These two are not related…

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I would be fine removing the extra ear slot if we also removed the must choose at creation restriction

Can you help us understand a bit more about why? Right now, the big concerns a lot of us have is that we have 10 options, but 1 of those options is so much better than the other 9 that those other options just serve as anchors.

Are you saying that the token should just be 100% versatile and not linked to a specific option? I'm just curious as to the thought process.

Agree that the extra ear slot is so unbalanced with the slot expanders that exist in ear, that it is neither cool or fun. I say this as someone who intends to transmute the Mark.

I will completely grant you that St. Winston's is the most versatile choice and I'm certain it will be the most popular.

I'm just not seeing it broken. I've spent an hour+ working on builds with or without the Mark. If I have two Earcuff slots or three Earcuff slots, here's where I land.

Charm Slots - 9 no change
Ioun Stone Slots - 9 no change
Bead Slots - 7 - no change

What do I gain? A Follower slot that I was going to use Fiend to make up for loss of 2 Charm.
So now I get a second best Shirt, Leg, Hand, Head, Feet or Shin slot. None of those are better than the +5 damage I can get from the Mark. I'm maxed out on ioun stones, so Dragonkin makes no sense and Fiend would now put me over the limit on Charms. So yeah, it's a lot of versatility and as a result will likely be the first pick of most, but don't see how it's broken.

So, if your argument is it will be picked by too many and as a result should be changed, I can go along with that.

If your argument is that it's broken, I just do not see it that way.

But perception = reality. So there's that. But telling me I can beat all the other options with charms, ioun stones or rings has no merit for me. EGG is already a given. So the only choice is Arcane Earcuff or Earcuff of Orbits. If I equip both it paints me into other corners. Builds are a little more complicated.

Dave wrote: I will completely grant you that St. Winston's is the most versatile choice and I'm certain it will be the most popular.

I'm just not seeing it broken. I've spent an hour+ working on builds with or without the Mark. If I have two Earcuff slots or three Earcuff slots, here's where I land.

Charm Slots - 9 no change
Ioun Stone Slots - 9 no change
Bead Slots - 7 - no change

What do I gain? A Follower slot that I was going to use Fiend to make up for loss of 2 Charm.
So now I get a second best Shirt, Leg, Hand, Head, Feet or Shin slot. None of those are better than the +5 damage I can get from the Mark. I'm maxed out on ioun stones, so Dragonkin makes no sense and Fiend would now put me over the limit on Charms. So yeah, it's a lot of versatility and as a result will likely be the first pick of most, but don't see how it's broken.

So, if your argument is it will be picked by too many and as a result should be changed, I can go along with that.

If your argument is that it's broken, I just do not see it that way.

But perception = reality. So there's that. But telling me I can beat all the other options with charms, ioun stones or rings has no merit for me. EGG is already a given. So the only choice is Arcane Earcuff or Earcuff of Orbits. If I equip both it paints me into other corners. Builds are a little more complicated.

Now project token development for the next 5 years, and evaluate if any option makes sense beyond a 3rd ear slot.

While I totally understand the concern about St. Winston’s, I am reassured by the caps on Ioun, Charm, Bead, and Ring slots. Using Winston’s to wear EGG, Arcane and Orbits is very powerful, but then other choices (Follower, wrist slot) will be constrained.

Dave wrote: None of those are better than the +5 damage I can get from the Mark.

Which version of the +5 Damage? I ask that in that a bonus to only melee or only range limits which classes that individual Mark is useful for, while an extra ear helps all classes and gives so many more options when switching classes, etc etc. There are other Mark power listed that help all classes, yes, but with some being very class limiting, it only makes the extra ear slot the easy choice.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: While I totally understand the concern about St. Winston’s, I am reassured by the caps on Ioun, Charm, Bead, and Ring slots. Using Winston’s to wear EGG, Arcane and Orbits is very powerful, but then other choices (Follower, wrist slot) will be constrained.

Are you finding you’re currently limited by the slot caps? None of my builds here

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=571&id=258460#465385

Are actually slot constrained in a manner where an extra ear slot isn’t always the best choice.

Dave wrote: I will completely grant you that St. Winston's is the most versatile choice and I'm certain it will be the most popular.

I'm just not seeing it broken. I've spent an hour+ working on builds with or without the Mark. If I have two Earcuff slots or three Earcuff slots, here's where I land.

Do you have examples, because the builds I have result in Winstons being able to do most everything the other Marks do, which makes their abilities just feel bad. That is the issue I'm trying to point out is Winstons is broken because it can do everything the other Marks can do. If the other Marks are supposed to be the power level we are supposed to be, a single Mark being able to do everything the other Marks do and more means it is an over-powered option. It is stronger than all the other choices in versatility and (sometimes) final effect and will get stronger over time. I feel it is fair to call that option broken. Versatility in game design is suppose to come at a cost, do less than its specialized counter parts. When the versatile option does as much or more, it is broken/overpowered.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: While I totally understand the concern about St. Winston’s, I am reassured by the caps on Ioun, Charm, Bead, and Ring slots. Using Winston’s to wear EGG, Arcane and Orbits is very powerful, but then other choices (Follower, wrist slot) will be constrained.

I think that side steps the issue that this Mark is more powerful than all the other Marks and is likely to only get stronger with time. We do have slot limits, that is true, but I think we need to address the versatile option being able to add more stats than its specialized counterparts.

Yeah, most of the high level builds with all 3 slot expanders in the ear will be sitting at what 7 ioun stones, 7 beads, 7 charms, and 4 rings, with some wiggle room when it comes to the caps for some of them.

It does seem a bit too powerful, but then again, I'm not in a position to really get one of them, so not sure how much my opinion matters on this front.

Dave wrote: I'm just not seeing it broken. I've spent an hour+ working on builds with or without the Mark. If I have two Earcuff slots or three Earcuff slots, here's where I land.

Charm Slots - 9 no change
Ioun Stone Slots - 9 no change
Bead Slots - 7 - no change

Can you share some builds? I'm happy if our initial reaction is flawed and that deeper analysis shows we're wrong.

Marc D wrote:

Dave wrote: I'm just not seeing it broken. I've spent an hour+ working on builds with or without the Mark. If I have two Earcuff slots or three Earcuff slots, here's where I land.

Charm Slots - 9 no change
Ioun Stone Slots - 9 no change
Bead Slots - 7 - no change

Can you share some builds? I'm happy if our initial reaction is flawed and that deeper analysis shows we're wrong.

Legendary bead bracelet
Orion’s belt
Earcuff of Orbits
Charm necklace
Flower fiend