TOPIC: True Grind Post-Mortem (2015 Who's Yer Con)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Yes I'm jaded and think the bard song should always apply.

Hello. I am a Wizard...

I'm a Dwarf Fighter

I assume you understand my point was that bardsong has NO EFFECT on spellcasting right?

I assume you understand my point is we fighter types just bash whatever is in front of us and don't worry about that stuff on our cards or in our pockets/pouches.

So yeah, your point is taken. Sorry if my attempt to respond humorously was misconstrued.

Edit: OK, I'm still not sure whether I'm sounding sarcastic or not. I not trying to. I was just trying to inject some humor. Hard to convey tone in this medium sometimes.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Yes I'm jaded and think the bard song should always apply.

Hello. I am a Wizard...

I'm a Dwarf Fighter

I assume you understand my point was that bardsong has NO EFFECT on spellcasting right?

Not true! My song helps you slide better.

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Yes I'm jaded and think the bard song should always apply.

Hello. I am a Wizard...

I'm a Dwarf Fighter

I assume you understand my point was that bardsong has NO EFFECT on spellcasting right?

I assume you understand my point is we fighter types just bash whatever is in front of us and don't worry about that stuff on our cards or in our pockets/pouches.

So yeah, your point is taken. Sorry if my attempt to respond humorously was misconstrued.

Edit: OK, I'm still not sure whether I'm sounding sarcastic or not. I not trying to. I was just trying to inject some humor. Hard to convey tone in this medium sometimes.

Nah, you are good It's all good

valetutto wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Yes I'm jaded and think the bard song should always apply.

Hello. I am a Wizard...

I'm a Dwarf Fighter

I assume you understand my point was that bardsong has NO EFFECT on spellcasting right?

Not true! My song helps you slide better.

Properly built I hit on a slide of a 1 without your song but thank you

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Yes I'm jaded and think the bard song should always apply.

Hello. I am a Wizard...

I'm a Dwarf Fighter

I assume you understand my point was that bardsong has NO EFFECT on spellcasting right?

Not true! My song helps you slide better.

Properly built I hit on a slide of a 1 without your song but thank you

On sliding spell? Explain, please.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Picc wrote: Even so multi year interdependent items like that can be troublesome if they don't do anything on their own. If someone pulls a 00 that unlocks powers (or a lower rarity version is printed later) the person getting that item could have a negative impression of being told they need teeth that can only be acquired as (possibly out of print) large purchase "bonus" item. Alternatively large buyers might get upset if there are to many other non-tooth methods for raising your power level. At this point I'm sure we'll make do, but it just seems like Jeff has set himself up for a lot of complaints.

You may be right, but the Amethyst Ovoid gives you two benefits without any Teeth: immune to psychic blast and a 4-pt lv0 healing free action. It isn't great on its own but it isn't bad IMO.

I agree with Kirk.

At the very least, the Amethyst Ovoid lets you heal once per game for 4 points.

When compared to the UR Wil's Dragonheart (+4 HP), it seems comparable.

The Dragonheart has the advantage of increasing your max HP and does not require a (free) action to use. The Amethyst Ovoid is in a less contested slot (Ioun Stone vs Charm), can presumably be used on other people, and provides immunity to psychic blasts.

Harlax wrote: I'm a Dwarf Fighter

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Uh yeah, if using thrown axes (particularly +1 Keen Hand Axes) you can most certainly still run out of ammo....

kurtreznor wrote: 1. nightmare difficulty seemed just right. some monsters can be extremely brutal when targeting a single person, but I know in my situation at the end of the grind it was more of a party tactic issue than being picked on (I might actually start requesting the paladin to guard the ranger...also, that paladin ability really needs to be fixed to use once per combat instead of only beginning of combat).

Due to the copious amounts of healing available (e.g. Eldritch set and Lenses of Divine Sight individually and especially when combined), on higher difficulty levels (new Nightmare & Epic) it is often better for monsters to concentrate on one player rather than spreading out the attacks.

the one 'complaint' I have has to do with side-stepping token abilities. I didn't have any issue at the time when the magma being flung couldn't be deflected with gloves of deflection, but the trend bothers me...
when a player equips TOKEN that interacts with X.
X happens one time in the dungeon/grind.
designer/DM decides that TOKEN is too powerful in this instance and rules that it doesn't apply to X this time.

Good point about the Gloves of Deflection.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) this design feature was NOT intended to specifically hose the Gloves of Deflection (which I am happy to see players wear, for variety).

The main problem in this case is the Monk, who is immune to non-magical missile attacks. Unfortunately the Gloves of Deflection are indirectly hurt by attempts to make things challenging for the Monk.

Similar issues exist for poison (5th level Monk is immune) and disease (Paladin is immune).

Lack of token balance has also resulted in things like Sleep being useless (due to the Minotaur Horn of Alert) and hold/web being extremely weak (since "free action" is a fairly ubiquitous effect nowadays).

I have a problem with this scenario. sure, one time rulings that allow an ability to get around tokens are understandable. but when the token is extremely narrow in what it does, and the only time it comes up players are told that it doesn't work, that is very frustrating. I feel like there should either be an intentional inclusion of a second instance where the token DOES work, or just reward the player for equipping such a narrow token...OR be up front and warn players with a list of tokens that will not work as expected due to balance reasons so we can equip something else.

The problem with your logic is that while the token is indeed narrow, the effect is *not* rare (every single Monk has it).

Same can be said for the Harpy Claw Amulet and a hypothetical token that gives you +4 AC when attacked by larger than man monsters.

I read from your summary that the gloves would have worked on lower difficulties, and that actually annoyed me as well. the tokens we use are a major part of enabling us to take on the higher difficulties, if the nightmare monsters are going to side-step all my token abilities maybe I should sell off half my tokens and just play hardcore...?

Factors that I consider in the adventure design process:

#1. Rarity/ubiquity of the effect (not just the token). As previously mentioned, a fixed class feature means that it is a relatively common occurrence from the perspective of the DM.

#2. Rarity of the token (not just in terms of C/U/R/UR, but also scarcity) compared to the difficulty of the adventure. Sorry but a common token won't let you bypass an adventure on the higher difficulty levels! While a UR will be more effective on a normal difficulty level. Exceptions may be made when equipping with a common token requires a significant opportunity cost (say if someone bothered with the common Boots of Lava Walking this WYC) and more allowances are made for consumable tokens. An example are cases where monsters can be bribed with GP. On lower levels, some common GP will work but on higher difficulties, you will need to be using uncommon or rare GP instead.

Incognito wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Picc wrote: Even so multi year interdependent items like that can be troublesome if they don't do anything on their own. If someone pulls a 00 that unlocks powers (or a lower rarity version is printed later) the person getting that item could have a negative impression of being told they need teeth that can only be acquired as (possibly out of print) large purchase "bonus" item. Alternatively large buyers might get upset if there are to many other non-tooth methods for raising your power level. At this point I'm sure we'll make do, but it just seems like Jeff has set himself up for a lot of complaints.

You may be right, but the Amethyst Ovoid gives you two benefits without any Teeth: immune to psychic blast and a 4-pt lv0 healing free action. It isn't great on its own but it isn't bad IMO.

I agree with Kirk.

At the very least, the Amethyst Ovoid lets you heal once per game for 4 points.

When compared to the UR Wil's Dragonheart (+4 HP), it seems comparable.

The Dragonheart has the advantage of increasing your max HP and does not require a (free) action to use. The Amethyst Ovoid is in a less contested slot (Ioun Stone vs Charm), can presumably be used on other people, and provides immunity to psychic blasts.

Harlax wrote: I'm a Dwarf Fighter

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Uh yeah, if using thrown axes (particularly +1 Keen Hand Axes) you can most certainly still run out of ammo....

You realize the joke is that he is swinging axes not throwing them right?

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Picc wrote: Even so multi year interdependent items like that can be troublesome if they don't do anything on their own. If someone pulls a 00 that unlocks powers (or a lower rarity version is printed later) the person getting that item could have a negative impression of being told they need teeth that can only be acquired as (possibly out of print) large purchase "bonus" item. Alternatively large buyers might get upset if there are to many other non-tooth methods for raising your power level. At this point I'm sure we'll make do, but it just seems like Jeff has set himself up for a lot of complaints.

You may be right, but the Amethyst Ovoid gives you two benefits without any Teeth: immune to psychic blast and a 4-pt lv0 healing free action. It isn't great on its own but it isn't bad IMO.

I agree with Kirk.

At the very least, the Amethyst Ovoid lets you heal once per game for 4 points.

When compared to the UR Wil's Dragonheart (+4 HP), it seems comparable.

The Dragonheart has the advantage of increasing your max HP and does not require a (free) action to use. The Amethyst Ovoid is in a less contested slot (Ioun Stone vs Charm), can presumably be used on other people, and provides immunity to psychic blasts.

Harlax wrote: I'm a Dwarf Fighter

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Uh yeah, if using thrown axes (particularly +1 Keen Hand Axes) you can most certainly still run out of ammo....

You realize the joke is that he is swinging axes not throwing them right?

I'm sure he does, but the meme did use the word never. Using "never" in front of Incognito is liking ringing a bell in front of Pavlov's dog.

Disbeeleaf wrote: It's only going to lead to player frustration to power creep the high level players up each year by substantial amounts, then tell them in the games that they are too powerful so the creep tokens they just bought this year don't work.

I also agree that telling players the effects would have worked at lower difficulty levels (or not telling them and letting them find out by talking to others) is frustrating, and leads high level players to conclude they would be better off not buying expensive tokens and playing on lower difficulty levels.

Well, my general approach is that more expensive tokens are more likely to work than cheap tokens. (Though there are always plenty of easter egg applications for common tokens that most players don't even bother to bring to Grind).

Part of it is that adventures for a particular difficulty level factor in the availability of tokens.

So no, a common steel mirror is not going to give you carte blanche immunity to a Medusa on Nightmare/Epic difficulty. Part of it is that "everyone carrying around a mirror as spare gear that doesn't even require a hand" is a real cop out. Secondly, such groups will probably have access to Uncommon scrolls of Stone to Flesh.

Yet on Normal difficulty, the same common steel mirror is going to be far more effective. Especially since we are NOT assuming that Normal parties will have access to uncommon consumables (Stone to Flesh).

The more likely scenario is for higher level players being told their uncommon/rare token will not be sufficient whereas a higher level token rare/UR/Relic+ would work. In these cases, players would have an incentive to obtain expensive tokens (which is the different end result than the one you were talking about where people stop buying tokens). I guess examples might include:

Ioun Stone Iridescent Sphere vs Iridescent Spindle
Ioun Stone Mithral Pyramid (against high DC) vs Lavender Ellipsoid
Damage scaling so that an Uncommon/Rare token would only provide minor protection compared to UR+

etc.

I see the bigger picture of this being that the creep is needed to keep token sales up but the game is not prepared for the effects that were included with the new year of token powers. Well, one of these will eventually have to snap.

Not sure which effects you are referring to.

And while it might be true for the main dungeon, for Grind I regularly refer to the various token lists when designing the adventures. In fact, I consistently go out of the way to look for creative uses for obscure tokens (which no one bothers with most of the time).

As for token effects, I thought last year (2014) was pretty bad in that you had all these desert environment tokens yet none of the main adventures actually used them.

In fact, I felt so bad for all the token buyers out there that I deliberately shoe-horned desert effects into Grind just so that some of those tokens would have a use! (Hat of Shade anyone? Sandstorm Cloak? Shoes of Sandwalking? Charm of the Mirage?). ::sighs::

Kirk Bauer wrote: I think such restrictions are unnecessary and here is why. The more equipped you are, the more you gave up to equip that item (if it takes a slot). So if I'm wearing Gloves of Spell Deflection then I chose NOT to wear Mithral Gauntlets. So it should really help out if it is needed IMO. So I think that all tokens should work just the same at all difficulties. Obviously -3 fire damage is more effective at Normal mode than Epic, but that's a scale issue.

While I generally agree with you about the opportunity cost, I don't think the Gloves of Spell Deflection are a good example (all because of the stupid Monk). Same with the Harpy Claw Amulet (stupid Paladin).

Disbeeleaf wrote: the game is not prepared for the effects that were included with the new year of token powers

This may be my biggest complaint about True Dungeon, although in my experience Eric and Raven do a really good job and are great at improvising as needed. But especially in the dungeon runs (where DMs are less willing/able to improvise) as the token variety grows, more interactions need to be thought about in advance (I know, easier said than done).

This issue is totally avoidable/fixable, at any of several levels:

1. When Jeff is designing the room
2. When the Adventure Coordinator is managing all DM's for the room
3. When all the DM's get notes for the room and have the chance to discuss things

On the volunteer subforums, each room actually does get its own sub-forum where DM's are supposed to talk (in advance) about how to handle the room.

In theory, it really shouldn't be all that hard for each group of room DM's to go over all the interesting token possibilities and then run them by Jeff or the Adventure Coordinator well in advance of GenCon.

But it is clear that that isn't really happening (though if any volunteer DM's want to claim otherwise, I am happy to defer to them on this matter!).

jedibcg wrote: You realize the joke is that he is swinging axes not throwing them right?

Rust monster?

Not to mention that axes (and other weapons) can get stuck in an opponent!

Harlax wrote: I'm sure he does, but the meme did use the word never. Using "never" in front of Incognito is liking ringing a bell in front of Pavlov's dog.

Or maybe Pavlov's BLINK dog!

Incognito wrote: In fact, I consistently go out of the way to look for creative uses for obscure tokens (which no one bothers with most of the time)...

...I deliberately shoe-horned desert effects into Grind just so that some of those tokens would have a use! (Hat of Shade anyone? Sandstorm Cloak? Shoes of Sandwalking? Charm of the Mirage?).

Eric,
Can you elaborate more on some of the creative uses for tokens that you secretly came up with, but no one stumbled across?

I think that would be really interesting.

Thanks.