TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

EvilJohn wrote: My understanding is, that if you have one complaint reported to you, that usually means there's ten more that have the same problem, but didn't report it.

I hate equating complaints to someone being wrong. Especially if there is only one. Perception can cause people to believe something that is not true. A volunteer can play a dungeon for the first time, figure out the puzzles and be accused of not letting the players get a chance at it even though the volunteer in this case is new to the dungeon like everyone else on the run, and really just another player. Perception isn’t always reality.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

EvilJohn wrote: My understanding is, that if you have one complaint reported to you, that usually means there's ten more that have the same problem, but didn't report it.

I hate equating complaints to someone being wrong. Especially if there is only one. Perception can cause people to believe something that is not true. A volunteer can play a dungeon for the first time, figure out the puzzles and be accused of not letting the players get a chance at it even though the volunteer in this case is new to the dungeon like everyone else on the run, and really just another player. Perception isn’t always reality.

Very much so. Just because someone got upset, does not mean at all that something is 'wrong'. I will again state how impressed I am though with how positive this community is, and how much everyone is striving for that perfect, nobody is every upset solution.

Hey just to throw this out there - if a new player is upset because "their class got taken", do you think they're going to turn into a vet that has no problem letting newbies take their preferred class? Are those really the types of people we want turning into vets, or is it best to nip it in the bud so to speak?

(This comment is only half tongue-in-cheek if I'm being honest)

jpotter wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

EvilJohn wrote: My understanding is, that if you have one complaint reported to you, that usually means there's ten more that have the same problem, but didn't report it.

I hate equating complaints to someone being wrong. Especially if there is only one. Perception can cause people to believe something that is not true. A volunteer can play a dungeon for the first time, figure out the puzzles and be accused of not letting the players get a chance at it even though the volunteer in this case is new to the dungeon like everyone else on the run, and really just another player. Perception isn’t always reality.

Very much so. Just because someone got upset, does not mean at all that something is 'wrong'. I will again state how impressed I am though with how positive this community is, and how much everyone is striving for that perfect, nobody is every upset solution.

Hey just to throw this out there - if a new player is upset because "their class got taken", do you think they're going to turn into a vet that has no problem letting newbies take their preferred class? Are those really the types of people we want turning into vets, or is it best to nip it in the bud so to speak?

(This comment is only half tongue-in-cheek if I'm being honest)

IMO this is an excellent point

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

I don’t think anyone is doubting that it CAN affect new players negatively. But by your own stories you have 1 second hand account of it happening and one second hand account of we don’t know what happened. Attempting to change rules that could also have negative effects on players. This seems a bit of an over reaction to me. We have a number of coaches saying how rarely there is a negative outcome of this interaction. How much of that negative would be reduced if everyone knew and understood the rules at time of choosing?

First of all, if the 3rd Level benefit is kept as is, does it require the player to be on time? Or perhaps a better question: how late can a 3rd-level player arrive and still take their preferred class from a lower-leveled player? I don't believe we understand the current rule fully.

Secondly, we have had a surprising number of people who have actually seen this happen, right here in this thread. Considering this is one forum post being viewed almost exclusively by veteran players, I'm surprised/worried how much it has happened.

Thirdly, we'll never know how many new players have been run off by this rule, since by definition they didn't stick around long enough to be participating on these forums.

Here are the posts showing that this can and does cause challenges.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=180#351734

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=36#351026

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=72#351307

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=84#351412

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=96#351495

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=24#350987

Did you reread them because I found them less than convincing, though they look impressive lined up with what was actually said. First 5 or less ties in 6 years. Second occasion happens, rarely hard feeling. Third "After the start time" guy came in and was a duche but got over it. Fourth "It wasn't the end of the world since I didn't have much to work with but it didn't feel great." Fifth had nothing do with a player at level 1 or 2 and the guy didn’t understand how it worked.
Sixth "It was done in a really rude way." Looks to me we have two issues. Jerks and people not knowing the rule.
I said before and will say it again Jerks are going to be jerks. No rule existing or new or is going to change their behavior. Having the rules available for all to see would likely solve most of the issues for those that don’t know.
You asked how late some one can "pull" rank from all the examples you provided looks like the coaches already are handling this. Once they are there it is too late. So codify that in written rules that all can see. The biggest issue right now with the 3rd and higher taking place is only a third or higher is likely to know the rule. So yeah it is going make people uneasy that they are being asked/forced to fellow a rule they don’t know. Will the written rule solve everything, NO. See my first statements about jerks. Whatever rule someone comes up as fair a jerk with not feel that it should apply to him or her because “I spent thousands of dollars on my build,” “because can you built that,” because they will insinuate they can play the class better because they have more experience.

I’m in favor of dropping the bonus, but also for absolutely allowing for all people to have a roll off in cases of contention. It should be something quick and easy and not made to be a big deal. Moreso, if it looks like it’s going to be an issue, call in an AC and have them adjust the party card if someone just doesn’t have the tokens for a certain role they are forced into.

Gen con TD tickets are 80.00, and that’s for now. No other event at gen con comes close for that block of time. Yes, TD is amazing, but at the cost threshold, it’s the totality of experience that matters.

I don’t think as a whole it should be chosen at band pick up, but should be officially cut off once a person has been added to the party card, for ease on the volunteers who have to build them in an efficient manner (sometimes having to do piles of math). In that way, there is a firm time to arrive and roll against someone, and a way to deal with it if it becomes an issue.

(Alternatively - and this would be it’s oen bag of design peanuts... have a bonus set of different colored sliders that travel with players through the dungeon and just double up a class. I mean, let’s be fair here - the 1 class per party rule is only limited by the current rules, sliders, etc. Sure there are classes that would cause difficulty if they were all the same, but it also would eliminate the problem entirely of a ‘who chooses it first/is higher level/complains the loudest/etc’. The goal ultimately is so the players have fun doing what they are doing.)

jpotter wrote: Hey just to throw this out there - if a new player is upset because "their class got taken", do you think they're going to turn into a vet that has no problem letting newbies take their preferred class? Are those really the types of people we want turning into vets, or is it best to nip it in the bud so to speak?

(This comment is only half tongue-in-cheek if I'm being honest)

Though I definitely get where you’re coming from I believe there is a case for a new(er) player wanting their class and being upset if they didn’t get it yet still turning into a more flexible vet.

True Dungeon can be overwhelming, when I started playing I fixated on wizard and was worried about playing another class because I wouldn’t know what to do. Then as I started investing in a build I had the issue Wayne cited of feeling I had spent a good deal of money on making my wizard awesome and would have next to nothing token-wise were I to play something else. Now after running more dungeons I try to pick last on any PUG, I’d much rather other players get their choice and I wouldn’t want to play something needlessly OP. I’d say it’s definitely possible to have a newbie want their class and grow into flexibility, and further I’d argue that seeing vets being flexible goes a long way in encouraging such behavior.

Just a idea that isn’t well thought out so may have big flaws.

Make the 3rd level benefit only work once a year. Give a card like the RoSP that gets mailed out with the QTR.

I am in favor of dropping the perk. I have seen some potential ugliness start over class selection in my years as a coach, and it has never gotten far. Thankfully veteran players in the two or three instances I've seen it, happened to be a part of the group, and were able to de-escalate. I won't speculate as to individual dispositions following these encounters. What I will say, candidly, is that something that has been referred to - the inve$tment$ into builds - THAT has almost made me behave like a jerk on a couple of occasions. Not in PUGs mind you, but with other vets where communication prior to the actual run was minimal or nonexistent. I have been fortunate to have had friends who reeled me in, quickly. But I DO get it. That is the most frustrating aspect of the class selection... and it is not a trivial matter-nor is there a canned, out-of-the-box, one-size-fits-all solution.

As a member of the DDA and one of the ones that runs TD-101, I can tell you I have begun to loathe that perk for a number of reasons - not the least of which is that it flies in the face of one of the points that we harp on most in TD-101 - TEAMWORK...

I oppose a "first come - first serve" stance - as that also sets potential for conflict at a higher level. The roll-off or arbitration by a coordinator (likely a roll-off) is the best solution, and in the spirit of the dice rolling crowd, most appropriate.

As to the groups that only get 7 or 8 tickets and expect to Buffalo newer players to get their way. Boo. In no way is that conducive to the good of the game. I know that getting a whole run is difficult, but if your group does not control all 10 tickets, you need to come to the run with a spirit of cooperation and the awareness that avev if you are not a volunteer - as a senior member of the community, you ARE an ambassador: for Jeff, for TD, and frankly, for the rest of us who play the game.

OK - sorry - end of soapbox.

Nix the level 3 perk
Make it a straight roll-off
Be excellent to one another

Grekel! wrote: Nix the level 3 perk
Make it a straight roll-off
Be excellent to one another

Thanks for the support, and yes this sounds like the best option (roll off if players can't agree). But how about a caveat that says the roll-off occurs at the event start time. Anybody arriving after that time has to choose a remaining class.

I’m still concerned about anything that takes away from players laying out their builds prior to the official start time. (Cue the people who say it’s no big deal)

But as a trainer this year I saw a lot of very experienced and competent coaches struggle to complete party cards within 24 minutes.

Harlax wrote: I’m still concerned about anything that takes away from players laying out their builds prior to the official start time. (Cue the people who say it’s no big deal)

But as a trainer this year I saw a lot of very experienced and competent coaches struggle to complete party cards within 24 minutes.

100 percent agree

The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.