TOPIC: Anyone playing VTD please read

isauteikisa wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I am genuinely sorry this has to be said.

The completion tokens aren't worth losing new players over.

Agreed, players should never be pressuring other players to do higher difficulty levels than they want just to get better participation tokens.

That is just part of it. Then vets are spoiling puzzles or refusing to help at all

I've certainly seen the puzzle spoiling thing (which is terrible), but I don't get the refusing to help. Are they refusing to help because they don't want to risk spoiling puzzles? Or are they just mentally checked out and only there for the loot?

I definitely agree no one should spoil puzzles, as far as helping on a puzzle you already know that’s tricky. Usually if there is enough players that don’t know the answer to a puzzle I’ll get the clue and let the rest of the players figure out the puzzle. That being all said I’m just buying out one run per event so I’m not the VTD problem.

It's a hard line to know where to draw it on. While it would be ideal to know everyone's preferences when part of the group knows solutions and part doesn't, that doesn't always happen. I've seen people get blasted on this forum for doing the puzzles when they know them and they have players that don't... now I'm seeing people get blasted for the direct opposite. We all want everyone on a run to have fun, but it seems like we're starting to get to a point where you need a two-page survey prerun to figure out what everyone wants out of a run.

Then don’t sign up for a PUG. Plain and simple

jedibcg wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I think we need more clarification on what, "vets not helping" specifically means.

We all assume it's the puzzles, but it could be something else.

Not everyone can buy out a run, but everyone can avoid ruining a run for newer players.

I 100% agree with this. Though I know what not ruining a puzzle means, I haven't a clue what not helping means.

Not helping. They get mad it’s a new group. Only want to run normal. So they pout. Not help at all healing etc( when they are the healer).
That is why I am
Saying if you can’t be an awesome gamer. Buy out the run or go into a run with a vets. Ruining it for new(ish) players is not being an awesome gamer

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: Then don’t sign up for a PUG. Plain and simple

I understand the sentiment but that is not an option for everyone. If you can only play at certain times, you are going to play at those times. Not you still should work on fostering a good game for all involved. But PUG's might be someone's only option. Personally I prefer PUG's to TD Vets, but that is a different topic.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote: I think we need more clarification on what, "vets not helping" specifically means.

We all assume it's the puzzles, but it could be something else.

Not everyone can buy out a run, but everyone can avoid ruining a run for newer players.

I 100% agree with this. Though I know what not ruining a puzzle means, I haven't a clue what not helping means.

Not helping. They get mad it’s a new group. Only want to run normal. So they pout. Not help at all healing etc( when they are the healer).
That is why I am
Saying if you can’t be an awesome gamer. Buy out the run or go into a run with a vets. Ruining it for new(ish) players is not being an awesome gamer

That's not just not being an awesome gamer, that's being an awful gamer.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: Not helping. They get mad it’s a new group. Only want to run normal. So they pout. Not help at all healing etc( when they are the healer).
That is why I am
Saying if you can’t be an awesome gamer. Buy out the run or go into a run with a vets. Ruining it for new(ish) players is not being an awesome gamer

This is extremely disappointing.

Our specific game isn't so big that we should be turning anyone off to it (TD isn't Magic).

I agree, if you're going to pout, PUGS probably aren't for you.

I'll say this though, they would be for me if I had more time. The sheer joy of new players solving a puzzle or defeating a monster is unrivaled.

Healing them, bardsong , Taunting so they don't get hit, it's a blast.

If you can only do one run per VTD, join a NM forum run LFM.

If you want to do more than 1, do that multiple times.

jedibcg wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: Then don’t sign up for a PUG. Plain and simple

I understand the sentiment but that is not an option for everyone. If you can only play at certain times, you are going to play at those times. Not you still should work on fostering a good game for all involved. But PUG's might be someone's only option. Personally I prefer PUG's to TD Vets, but that is a different topic.

Yes but you don’t ruin it or try to force tokens on people. Big difference in what I am trying to fix

Are there perhaps certain people who could be pulled aside privately and informed that this behavior has been reported as negative in the hopes that the player will do better in the future? I know I am guilty of throwing around Tokens for PUGs when people think they would like a boost. While I might suggest that I can do Nightmare Easily, I do my best to leave it up to the group what difficulty is chosen. In puzzles, If hints are requested I guide the thought process, rather than outright solving a puzzle.I try to be mindful that the excitement of the moment doesn't override that desire in them to solve the puzzle for themselves. I have also stepped away for (in most cases 5-6 minutes or less) when the puzzles begin to avoid any temptation to offer hints before they have a chance to solve it first. I have yet to have anyone come out of a run complaining, but I know I can't speak for everyone. I feel like it's all in how you approach things. As veterans, we should help, but not dominate pugs. If we buy a run we control what we want. I think banning loaning of Tokens outright is a little unfair to everyone in the long run.

If we implemented a complaint system for the negative behavior, maybe loss of player XP for the module could be a motivator for people to play nice? With a proper review and/or appeal process in place to be fair to all.

If you think this thread might apply to you, it probably does to some degree.

We can all do better (myself included)

I completely understand where Laz is coming from as it is very hard to pinpoint every occurrence to address the existing issues, so a blanket statement makes it much easier to get the idea across.

Additionally I have seen runs go from players being super excited to being lent out tokens(getting a full blessed redoubt set I think it was), to wondering why the combats were so easy(they were playing on Hardcore). I was literally sitting there as a DM with a party that ran hardcore with builds that would borderline nightmare, and they just wiped the floor with monsters that I just fudged HP to go 3/4 of the room to keep the players engaged and so they could see all the effects even though I couldn't break their AC. It is hard to tell a player I missed them again for the n-teenth time in room seven and keep them excited when they haven't taken any damage from combat other than a failed reflex save (which has already been healed). I don't want to scale to hits or damage because I don't want to accidentally kill a newer player unjustly, so the only thing i can affect is the monster HP, and that is only to make the room last longer.


Personal Rant:
My personal pet peeve is players in the dungeon asking can I just give you the answer to the puzzle so we don't take push damage. seriously? Your worried about push damage? The players that usually ask this are the ones that none of the first room monsters can even break their AC, or they cant be touched for one reason or another. Seriously it is room 5, you are full HP(or close) because I know I when I hit and when I don't (Your AC is literally in front of me!).

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As for a survey, people can just ask themselves a few questions, because I believe the point of this post is to reflect.

1) Have I every geared out a newer player to basically be in an inflatable hamster ball so the DM couldn't hurt them or the anyone else in the party? If you answered yes, please stop and just make a weaker build. Potion of death's door is not just for Alchemist Inks.

2) Have I have tried not to take push damage from a puzzle when I had more than 80% HP? If you answered yes, please see my rant above.

3) Do I engage with new players(less frequent players) to get them involved in rooms to get them to see different mechanics or progress through the puzzle? If you answered yes, then good on you. Players join role playing games to find a community and engage with others. This is what you should be doing.

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Please note this is my personal opinion on the topic. I just wanted to take this moment to get some feelings off my chest for things I have seen in the dungeon.

Here’s the thing obviously it’s happening or it would t have needed to be said. Also look at the source of who is saying it Laz is pretty respected around TD he is bringing it up because the people who have said something don’t feel comfortable confronting the players directly. Now let me address a few topics.

If you want to give a hint message the dm see if they agree. Or just leave it to the DM to run the room. Where much of the problem arises is people who think they are being helpful but really aren’t.

Loaning people tokens and building new players up if fun. However if they don’t know what the tokens do or how to use them properly you do more harm than good.

For the love of god!!!! If you get into a party that selects a lower difficulty do not…. I repeat do not come in with a build that does 7million damage per round, and can’t be hit, and has a token for every thing you will encounter. When they do 10 damage and the next person does 7million they are not having fun. Bard and healers you fall into a weird spot and I’m not completely sure how I feel.

If you are playing the dungeon and know the answers. Just message the dm tell them you have played and know the answers and I bet they won’t give you push damage if it comes down to time.

Lastly if we cannot police ourselves the dms will have to start stepping in, and I don’t think anyone wants to be muted. I’m sure if it comes to it and people start getting muted there will be complaints about dm’s. So police yourselves and don’t let it come to that.

It’s not everyone. It’s not most but it happens enough that it needed to be said. Keep that in mind. I assure you every DM
has at least one of these stories every weekend.

Not that I think it would work 100%, but could 1 run every 4 hours be designated "1st runners only" or something similar?

Yes, I remember the days of designated NM runs.

Vets are in a tough spot. If the new player wants both feedback and not having the puzzle spoiled.

Greg (Fortunes) wrote: My personal pet peeve is players in the dungeon asking can I just give you the answer to the puzzle so we don't take push damage.

I am truly gobsmacked to hear that. I've been playing TD since 2003 and I have never, ever heard of someone doing that. I'm not doubting you Greg, I'm just appalled to learn it's happened--more than once from what it sounds like.