TOPIC: Request about the boss for E3

It is a tough line for True Dungeon to walk - hard enough to be challenging but not so hard as to be frustrating. There's no way to make everyone happy. I think in recent years they hit the mark, I'm optimistic they will again this year.

-Mike "I think sometimes people on the forums forget that they are in the top 1% as far as token builds, adventure preparation, room effectiveness, etc. A difficulty level that many forum members might see as challenging but achievable might seem hopeless to most players."

This past Origins was an eyeopener/realization for me in several respects regarding that 1% mentality. I don't consider myself a big spender or old timer as there's plenty other folks i've basically grown up around or always looked upto far as pillars of the game and or volunteer community. This Origins was a con where i realized that yes in comparison to the absolute top i'm not their tier but as others remind me i don't exactly have a starter build either
I would consider myself a top 10% ish as i'm mostly purple which is still far more than what i see pass through my coaching/training room.

This was also a con where me and another volunteer looked at each other during build and realized we're now deemed 'responsible' when we were surrounded by new or newer volunteers on build. Just really a mentality shift that yeah i've not been around since dawn of time i have been around a good part of the timeline now (including the end of the awful Smoak years).

My group is hardcore+/nightmare - really now, most of us are mid tier UR builds but not BiS and plenty of filler rares still in. We want Nightmare and do it for the challenge and since we're doing each dungeon once only to ensure we get the completion tokens.

I agree on Epic needs supported at all cons and as the ever changing frontier on what is the top build. I think runs like the high tier grinds and Jeff/Lory/Avery/gorgon serve as a very good check point to see what the playerbase can throw together as the 'top' builds without greed. Use those stats to help set a check point for Epic.

I'd like to see more groups goto Nightmare but i respect players choice there,

I am not sure I fully understand the recurring theme in this thread that there is a very fine line to be walked between accessibility for new players and challenging for experienced players. Isn't the entire purpose of the various difficulties to accommodate the wide spectrum of players.

Normal = Welcome to True Dungeon. It won't be easy but you will survive to see the end.
Hardcore = So you have done this before and have collected a few character specific tokens for the major slots.
Nightmare = You better be prepared - either through party planning, tokens collected, or (ideally) both.
Epic = If you survive, congratulations - we were actively trying to kill you the entire time.

Hardcore should be attainable for those players committed to running TD each year but not interested in token collecting and/or a stepping stone for those with a fever that can only be cured by more tokens.

Experienced players, who typically run Nightmare+, running normal or hardcore should, by now, know what this entails and be prepared to be an envoy for TD and newer players, who are most likely to be demoralized by spending $$ on a ticket and dying, should be actively discouraged from running Nightmare.

dsypher (Luigi) wrote: I am not sure I fully understand the recurring theme in this thread that there is a very fine line to be walked between accessibility for new players and challenging for experienced players. Isn't the entire purpose of the various difficulties to accommodate the wide spectrum of players.

Normal = Welcome to True Dungeon. It won't be easy but you will survive to see the end.
Hardcore = So you have done this before and have collected a few character specific tokens for the major slots.
Nightmare = You better be prepared - either through party planning, tokens collected, or (ideally) both.
Epic = If you survive, congratulations - we were actively trying to kill you the entire time.

Hardcore should be attainable for those players committed to running TD each year but not interested in token collecting and/or a stepping stone for those with a fever that can only be cured by more tokens.

Experienced players, who typically run Nightmare+, running normal or hardcore should, by now, know what this entails and be prepared to be an envoy for TD and newer players, who are most likely to be demoralized by spending $$ on a ticket and dying, should be actively discouraged from running Nightmare.

I think that's true in general, but there are other factors than just tokens. I've outfitted the group well enough to probably do Nightmare, but Hardcore is a better fit for us.

Some groups are much better sliders than others - I'd say ours is above average.

Some are much more efficient and can slide very quickly, getting more combat rounds in per room. My group is below average, we're just as likely to sing along with the Bard as slide quickly.

Some groups make great use of character abilities. Most of the players in my group have no idea of character abilities after all these years. They give zero thought to True Dungeon outside of our runs.

Some groups are doing difficulty levels because they want certain completion tokens, or XP level. Many people in my group want max XP, we've got some of the higher players on the XP list.

Maybe most importantly, groups differ in how much of a challenge they want. Some want to go on Epic level with daggers, and some want a challenge with a pretty good chance of success. My group is the latter - when I asked if they wanted to run Hardcore or Nightmare, it was unanimously Hardcore. I still run some Nightmare with other groups, like when we did Mercenary runs.

Mike Steele wrote: I've outfitted the group well enough to probably do Nightmare, but Hardcore is a better fit for us.

The group is self-selecting the difficulty that is the best fit for how they want to enjoy True Dungeon which is exactly how it should work

There are variables that can and should be accounted for in dungeon/encounter design at each difficulty and there are some variables that one cannot directly control. For those variables that cannot be directly controlled, you provide the information necessary for the players to make an informed decision - just like the difficulty selection screen available in some video games.

I suck at sliding but I should still have opportunity to challenge myself if I so chose.

Luigi, I'm going to make some changes to your assumptions. I assume my assessment is the correct one. LOL

dsypher (Luigi) wrote: I am not sure I fully understand the recurring theme in this thread that there is a very fine line to be walked between accessibility for new players and challenging for experienced players. Isn't the entire purpose of the various difficulties to accommodate the wide spectrum of players.

Non-Lethal Welcome to True Dungeon. It won't be easy but you will survive to see the end.
Normal = Welcome to True Dungeon. It won't be easy but you will Might survive to see the end.
Hardcore = So you have done this before and have collected a few character specific tokens for the major slots. As long as you're using at least all rares you might survive to the end.
Nightmare = You better be prepared - either through party planning, tokens collected, or (ideally) both.
Epic = If you survive, congratulations - we were actively trying to kill you the entire time.

Hardcore should be attainable for those players committed to running TD each year but not interested in token collecting and/or a stepping stone for those with a fever that can only be cured by more tokens.
This is fine, as long as you save your tokens year over year rather than throwing them out as I did.

Experienced players, who typically run Nightmare+, running normal or hardcore should, by now, know what this entails and be prepared to be an envoy for TD and newer players, who are most likely to be demoralized by spending $$ on a ticket and dying, should be actively discouraged from running Nightmare.

Mike Steele wrote: It is a tough line for True Dungeon to walk - hard enough to be challenging but not so hard as to be frustrating. There's no way to make everyone happy. I think in recent years they hit the mark, I'm optimistic they will again this year.

Honest question, shouldn't this be the point of Nightmare? A frustratingly (in a good way) challenge that you aspire to get to and is difficult to beat? The 1% comment has merit but after years of playing you will acquire better gear. The 1% could be said for the forums as well where there is an even smaller pool of voices that does most of the TD gate-keeping . BTW - that comment was not meant as a jab to anyone, just an honest assessment for discussion and reflection. If you really step back the forums are not the most inviting to noobs and even to some experienced folks. I heard this complaint from 8 of the 13 people I recruited. That's another topic.

I think Normal & Hardcore are just right. Nightmare needs some of the horror and fear put back in if EPIC is not offered at every Con as Fiddy pointed out. Epic should be the near impossible to beat scenario but beatable. (I don't count the Gorgan style runs as rules are literally made up on the fly and it's set up as a no win scenario. You accept that going in same should go for Nightmare as you really have to earn that completion token.)

I like Luigi’s idea of a list. Should put a poster in each coaching room with difficulty expectations.

Krym wrote: I like Luigi’s idea of a list. Should put a poster in each coaching room with difficulty expectations.

I mean this in the kindest way - I coach all the time and we have had things VITAL to play in there that don't get read. I doubt this would be any different.
That being said, I ALWAYS try to explain the differences and help them make the most appropriate choice. I remember one brand new party that wanted to do Hardcore. I discouraged it but they wanted to anyway. They came back through my room later that day, not unhappy, and told me I was right but that they had a good time dying, which they all did.

For hardcore, I don't think I agree with this:

Hardcore = So you have done this before and have collected a few character specific tokens for the major slots. As long as you're using at least all rares you might survive to the end.

I think its more like:

Hardcore = So you have done this before and have thoughtfully planned your build and filled your slots with tokens you can get from booster packs, you might survive to the end.

You can make some really solid builds that are like half uncommons and commons...

Bob Chasan wrote: Luigi, I'm going to make some changes to your assumptions. I assume my assessment is the correct one. LOL

You are correct especially about not throwing away your tokens each year.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Krym wrote: I like Luigi’s idea of a list. Should put a poster in each coaching room with difficulty expectations.

I mean this in the kindest way - I coach all the time and we have had things VITAL to play in there that don't get read. I doubt this would be any different.
That being said, I ALWAYS try to explain the differences and help them make the most appropriate choice. I remember one brand new party that wanted to do Hardcore. I discouraged it but they wanted to anyway. They came back through my room later that day, not unhappy, and told me I was right but that they had a good time dying, which they all did.

Hah! I guess I can agree with that. I remember after exiting a run at PaxSouth there was a sign mentioning Fog just inside the door leading to the Coaching tables. I completely overlooked it when I walked in.

I’d still like to see the sign though if just for comical statements describing your expected fate on the harder modes.