TOPIC: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid Discussion

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

One of the things that makes our annual sets so decent is they go through a public vetting process to balance things out. Those 140 tokens usually turn out pretty well. Completion tokens don’t. Having 20+ completion tokens designed in a relative vacuum guarantees there will be too much variation in power. Just look at the history. Drinking Horn of Bliss is nowhere near as desirable as the slotless Soul Coffer, and a reprinted Boots of Might is waaay better than Bracelets of Blocking.

And I disagree with any satellite having chase tokens, especially not any that are worth more than the ticket. In my opinion, the satellites should be focused on adding new players to the community, not luring the old guard to fly around the country. The former would build token sales. The latter just frustrates me and maybe others.

+1

+2

Matthew Hayward wrote: Some people like all the tokens and collecting them.

Is there some reason why they should be more limited - or are you just sharing your preference?

I cant speak for Brad, but some of us are starting to feel a bit burned out by it all. I guess that happens with any rapid growth. Maybe I don't speak for the majority, I don't know, but personally I don't feel like adds to my enjoyment so much as my frustration. Of course your millage will vary.

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

+1

+2

There doesn't need to be so many completion tokens.

And TD might as well let the community help design/review them if they're going to be announced in advance of the cons anyway.

Jasper Ellipsoid/Prism is extremely good. I'm actually ok with that though. I think the occasional token that is overpowered for its rarity is good. Keeps things interesting.

Jeff321 wrote: I think the occasional token that is overpowered for its rarity is good. Keeps things interesting.

Please no. Because once an overpowered token is out it pretty much becomes the new baseline when future token design conversations get held. It is so hard to get people to see that it was an exception that should not be used as the reference for more tokens.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

+1

Cheekily: -1

Some people like all the tokens and collecting them.

Is there some reason why they should be more limited - or are you just sharing your preference?

It is preference to be sure. I’m not a completionist when it comes to tokens. I was holding onto a large number of completion tokens from recent years, but most of them will be heading for the chipper soon as there is no Transmute that will use them.

If completion tokens are not must haves, make all you want. If some are going to must haves, then I think there should be multiple opportunities to get them. Not many Pax West players are likely to make their way to Indy or Madison or Columbus.

Picc wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

One of the things that makes our annual sets so decent is they go through a public vetting process to balance things out. Those 140 tokens usually turn out pretty well. Completion tokens don’t. Having 20+ completion tokens designed in a relative vacuum guarantees there will be too much variation in power. Just look at the history. Drinking Horn of Bliss is nowhere near as desirable as the slotless Soul Coffer, and a reprinted Boots of Might is waaay better than Bracelets of Blocking.

And I disagree with any satellite having chase tokens, especially not any that are worth more than the ticket. In my opinion, the satellites should be focused on adding new players to the community, not luring the old guard to fly around the country. The former would build token sales. The latter just frustrates me and maybe others.

+1

+2

Matthew Hayward wrote: Some people like all the tokens and collecting them.

Is there some reason why they should be more limited - or are you just sharing your preference?

I cant speak for Brad, but some of us are starting to feel a bit burned out by it all. I guess that happens with any rapid growth. Maybe I don't speak for the majority, I don't know, but personally I don't feel like adds to my enjoyment so much as my frustration. Of course your millage will vary.

It’s starting to feel like blackmail. It’s probably a coincidence, but the desirability of last year’s completion tokens seemed about inversely proportional to TD’s “footprint” at that Con. It’s like, if you want the must-have vs the dross, better show up at a PAX.”

I know, another way to look at it is that it’s a bonus to players for helping to forge a new local.

Some people think it’s a carrot. To some of us it’s starting to feel like a stick.

And sure, it’s a preference, like everything I say. But I thought I gave some logical reasons why it’s getting to be too much.

I mean, why not go out? Don’t just have different tokens at different cons. Let’s have unique tokens for every run. (Don’t worry, Trent, that’s just frustration masking as sarcasm.)

Picc wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We have too many different completion tokens. Please, make it stop. Seriously.

Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

One of the things that makes our annual sets so decent is they go through a public vetting process to balance things out. Those 140 tokens usually turn out pretty well. Completion tokens don’t. Having 20+ completion tokens designed in a relative vacuum guarantees there will be too much variation in power. Just look at the history. Drinking Horn of Bliss is nowhere near as desirable as the slotless Soul Coffer, and a reprinted Boots of Might is waaay better than Bracelets of Blocking.

And I disagree with any satellite having chase tokens, especially not any that are worth more than the ticket. In my opinion, the satellites should be focused on adding new players to the community, not luring the old guard to fly around the country. The former would build token sales. The latter just frustrates me and maybe others.

+1

+2

+3

Matthew Hayward wrote: Some people like all the tokens and collecting them.

Is there some reason why they should be more limited - or are you just sharing your preference?

I cant speak for Brad, but some of us are starting to feel a bit burned out by it all. I guess that happens with any rapid growth. Maybe I don't speak for the majority, I don't know, but personally I don't feel like adds to my enjoyment so much as my frustration. Of course your millage will vary.[/quote]

+2

Assume the old way (limited comp tokens) is the status quo.

The path we’re on makes some of us happier, and it’s doing the opposite for some of us. Some people don’t care.

The question is whether you want to maximize some people’s enjoyment or minimize other people’s dissatisfaction.

If there is going to be a power disparity, at least make the “better” tokens more available by releasing them at GenCon, and release the inferior ones at the satellites. I think that might minimize the frustration. I lucked into a Soul Coffer, but a lot of people were steamed that the must-have token of the year was only (sorta) reliably available in San Antonio.

But I have a low tolerance for forum debates lately so I don’t really feel like arguing about it. He’ll do what he wants.

If you love chasing tokens (an aspect of the hobby that didn’t exist when TD was GenCon only, not like now) then just understand that there are people who hate it more than you like it.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

So you'd rather have three pairs of Volunteer Tokens instead of just two?
If we were to add two more conventions, would you advocate a fourth pair? And a 5th pair if four more conventions?

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

So you'd rather have three pairs of Volunteer Tokens instead of just two?
If we were to add two more conventions, would you advocate a fourth pair? And a 5th pair if four more conventions?

Personally I like each conversation having it’s own competition tokens. It gives extra incentive to go to more than 1. Gencon will sale out with or without good completion tokens, so it doesn’t really need the best competition tokens and volunteer tokens.
Gamehole, Pax south, and origins could definitely use the help of interesting and strong competition tokens.

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

So you'd rather have three pairs of Volunteer Tokens instead of just two?
If we were to add two more conventions, would you advocate a fourth pair? And a 5th pair if four more conventions?

If you're really going to add that many more conventions, I suggest 1 completion token per convention with an option to swap the completion token for a treasure draw. Still only produce 1 volunteer token and give the option for people to swap their volunteer token for an in print PYP.

Please try to keep your logistics, and new convention token development, simple.

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Double up. e.g. PAX West & Origins get the same set, and PAX South and GHC get a second. GenCon is so big it can be unique.

So you'd rather have three pairs of Volunteer Tokens instead of just two?
If we were to add two more conventions, would you advocate a fourth pair? And a 5th pair if four more conventions?

In the dark ages when I first played, we had five non-set tokens in the collection per year. (Not counting volunteer tokens.)

Then we got to eight (a third main dungeon plus the newbie one.)

Origins added six. GHC added six. PAX South added more, as did PAX North. I’ve lost track. Where is it now, 30 per year vs five? That doesn’t even include Transmorph and fragments and greaves and Thor knows what else.

Oops. Trophies. Even those went from four to six.

And I agree, a few such tokens add spice. Too much spice causes ulcers.

THAT is what causes me anxiety, and that’s what I’m commenting about. My comments weren’t about adding or subtracting volunteer tokens.

I haven’t formulated an opinion on volunteer tokens, other than volunteers are great, and their rewards shouldn’t be junk.

Brad Mortensen wrote: My comments weren’t about adding or subtracting volunteer tokens.

Sorry, I misunderstood.