TOPIC: Sniping - Why is it such a big issue?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Here's a reason I don't like sniper-friendly auctions: I've bid in some, then got a message after bidding was over saying I lost, but would I bid higher? So that went on for awhile until I got too ticked off, and I don't know if I ever bid on another of that person's auctions again.

That sucks - I see that as an issue of integrity with the auction runner (unless the structure of the auction was clear to begin with - even then it's unappealing).

At some point I'd begin to question whether there were even other bidders or they were just trying to run me up and then come back with "whoops - the other guy backed out, you can have it at [last accepted bid amount]" once they hit my limit.

I'd probably announce on the auction thread that I'd been outbid at $X, and so I've withdrawn by bid - so whoever the person paying $X+1 knows that there is no offer at $X on the table any longer (at least from me).

I agree - that's why I said that I like auctions that have a set end time - as long as the rules are followed. To me, if there is a set end-time, and someone contacts you after the auction ends asking if you'd like to increase your bid - or accepts bids that came in after the deadline - that violates the rules of the auction and can cause a lot of hurt feelings and distrust and anger. And that would be a person that I wouldn't participate in any future auctions of theirs.

This is why I seldom play the 'auction game' . Ebay is bad enough, but at least I know what I'm getting into there, and its all third party legit. Aside from the re-sellers who have shill accounts, and bid up their own auctions. Don't think we all don't know it happens, and that no one is savvy enough to notice that the folks that do it always have 6X the auction bids (even on uncommon and rares) of the people who don't.

On the forums, I determine what I think is a fair price for a token, and that is where I start.

I don't get mad about sniping .. because quite honestly .. there is no token that I need that badly that I couldn't just buy. I like to save $5 or $10 as much as the next guy ..but if I REALLY want a token that is hard to find .. that I couldn't live without .. I just pay $50 or $100 more than the next person is offering.

I haven't found one of those yet .. for the record

Steve wrote: Aside from the re-sellers who have shill accounts, and bid up their own auctions. Don't think we all don't know it happens, and that no one is savvy enough to notice that the folks that do it always have 6X the auction bids (even on uncommon and rares) of the people who don't.

This surprises me - I'm not expert at eBay shenanigans - but I wouldn't ascribe number of bids to be a problem? And I haven't seen any repeat TD listers that look troubling? (I have seen suspicious stuff like someone with 3 feedback listing a UR volunteer token using a picture from another listing).

A lot of people like to do this for some reason:
* Bidder A bids $8 - they are the only bidder, price is $0.01
* Bidder B comes in and goes:
Bid 10 cents (outbid by A automatically)
Bid 50 cents ""
Bid $1 ""
Bid $2 ""
Bid $3 ""
Bid $4.50 ""
Bid $6 ""
Give up.

This will show as a bunch of bids.

My understanding is the more fraudulent approach don't require lots of bids, it looks like this:
* Bidder A bids $8 - they are the only bidder, price is $0.01
* Shill Bidder B bids $1000 - they take the bid at $8.05 - now the seller knows A's top bid is $8.00
* Bidder B retracts their bid: "Whoops - wrong item / typo."
* Later, Shill Bidder C bids $7.50, A's Bid goes to $8.00.

Profit!

Allegedly eBay watches out for such behavior...

This is actually a good reason to snipe on eBay, it avoids this type of shenanigans.

Retracting a bid on e-bay is a pretty complicated process that involves humans. If someone were to do that twice in a week it would raise flags, twice in a day? ban-hammer.

No, what folks do is create a shill account with the purpose of bidding up their auctions. Sometimes they are smart enough to have several, sometimes they make a new one for each 'group' of auctions.

But you can see the pattern.

Legitimate person puts in bid.
Shill bids in small amounts until they *just* pass the bid.
Another legitimate bid is entered by someone. same pattern.
repeat until the last few hours of their auction, or until they get to a price point they feel comfortable with.

If you see this pattern, you can click on the bid list then the bidder. [Ignoring screen scrapers, or ripping apart the HTML during pre-render events etc.] You can immediately see the number of times they have bid in the last 30 days, if they are a new user, and more importantly .. the % of auctions they have taken part with for this seller.

If someone has 15 bids in the last 30 days, 3-4 of them on this item, and 80%+ with this seller? *AND* is a brand new account?

It is suspicion worthy.

If those same auctions all have that new bidder, and they have never WON a single auction (and are always the second to the last bidder) *AND* all of the auctions are at, or higher than current store prices. It is a shill account 99% of the time.

People just don't *bid* that way. You would have to be baby-sitting auctions constantly, and bidding multiple times, in small increments, over DAYS to effect this pattern. Always losing? In the end of the day, who - aside from the seller - has THAT much interest in auctions from *only* one seller?

Ebay doesn't do much about it, because its a dickens to actually 'trap' someone doing it. Additionally, they benefit from both higher sale prices due to percentage, and because it reinforces the idea that people will get high $ sales if they sell on Ebay.

I used to 1099 with Bill Me Later, and there was a lot of work put in to analyze bidding patterns against items for prediction of fraudulent charges [with an eye towards money laundering, not shill bidding] before the company was bought.

it is fascinating stuff.

But .. I digress

Steve wrote:
it is fascinating stuff.

Clearly - thanks for sharing!

I don't remember the exact details, just the bad taste it left.

Personally, if someone want's to snipe a bid....let them. I don't bid to win. If I did I'd be broke. Especially with a game as expensive as TD. I like to better my character, but not at the expense of eating.
I bid the amount I am willing to pay. I've bid on several of Roarry's items recently and not won a single item. And I won't lose sleep over it either.

This is just my approach. I don't expect everyone to have the same point of view as myself.


As for the forum auctions themselves, as long as the person hosting the auction provides clear rules and sticks with them, I have no issue. But IF someone sets rules and then forego's them for whatever reason, I'm not a fan and will likely avoid that seller in the future.

Thankfully I have not had any bad experiences in my short couple of years on these forums when it comes to auctions.