TOPIC: Rogue Builds

I am curious to see other individuals higher difficulty Rogue builds. I am finding it fascinating between the melee and ranged builds. I would like to figure out the staples of higher difficulty Rogue builds.

While you can go for either a melee or ranged build, pretty much every high end Rogue build of both types is built around the same combo of tokens since it gives you a much stronger build than you would otherwise have.

• Raphiel's Sneaky Necklace/Necklace of the Sneak
• Bead of Guided Strike/Bracers of Guided Strike
  
• A weapon which deals additional damage on a Critical Hit during a Sneak Attack. Your options for this are Nightshade's +2 Short Sword, Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger, Asher's +5 Viper Strike Fang (plus two other Viper Strike items for the set bonus), and +2 Assassin's Crossbow (plus Lenses of Agility to let you Sneak Attack with it).

The rest of the build would generally consist of as many bonuses as you can fit in for hit, damage, and saves. A big factor in the strength of a build is cost, since the upper limit on how much it's possible to spend on the game is so high it may as well not exist, so a lot is down to choice on which difficulty level you are aiming for and how much you'd like to spend on tokens. There's no special incentive for playing at the higher difficulty levels with expensive tokens, all you get out of it is the knowledge that your character is just that strong, although for a lot of us here that's plenty of incentive already.

Anything more granular than that is down to individual preference, for example I tend to put more value on AC than most people do, and I aim for a high hit modifier since I play substantially more virtual events than physical meaning I rely on a semi-random number more often rather than my ability to slide.

Alternatively, if you're not just looking for the strongest build possible, there's plenty of scope for theme builds. I'm currently holding onto tokens like Pants of the Pub, Turkey Leg, Charm of the Waves, etc for a friend who's determined to play a staggering drunk next time he goes to Gen Con and tries True Dungeon.

Separately to all of the above, which deals with combat, there are also several tokens which make it easier to complete the Rogue class tests, which I particularly like since I then have more time to solve the room with the rest of the party. Examples include Ektdar's Tinkering Tool, Masterwork Thieves' Tools, +2 Rod of Persuasion, Figurine of Power: Raven, and Bead of Dark Resistance. Libram of Looting is also a great token which is due for a reprint next year.

Completely agree with what lross said above.

I'll add that for a high-end ranged rogue build, other key tokens are Cranston's Helpful Hat, which allows the wearer to equip two eye items, meaning you can wear Lenses of Agility or Lenses of Vital Insight to sneak attack at range, and another eye item to boost to-hit, such as Goggles of the Deadshot or Sniper Spectacles.

In addition, Aron's Sunhide Robe (legendary) or the Starhide Robe (relic) are helpful for to-hit as well.

For hands, Gloves of the Deadshot boost to-hit, while Gloves of Greater Archery add to damage with physical missiles. Which one a player wears might depend on whether they prioritize to-hit or damage.

Some other high-end tokens that rogues or any other character might consider are Luna's Greater Charm Bracelets (legendary, +4 charms) or Greater Charm Bracelets (relic, +3 charms), and Muk's Greater RIng of Havoc (legendary, +6 to melee or ranged damage) or Greater Ring of Havoc (relic, +4 to melee or ranged damage).

Richard Harmon wrote: I am curious to see other individuals higher difficulty Rogue builds. I am finding it fascinating between the melee and ranged builds. I would like to figure out the staples of higher difficulty Rogue builds.

My typical rogue build is pretty near max damage for a rogue (link to it in my signature.) Range is superior to melee builds. Although you can get close to the ranged damage with melee, the ranged damage benefits from better reflex saves, better ac, fewer slots committed to reach the damage max, and lower risk of retribution damage.

The build could eek out about 2-3 more points but it would be at the cost of saves, etc..
Ranged to-hit: +19, +49 damage (+51 damage with sneak attacks). This build focuses on getting crits to leverage the x3 damage from the Assassin's Crossbow. Crit damage is 185-200 before bardsong, runestones, or similar. Comparatively, the max melee build is about +20 to hit, +50 damage (+52 with sneak) - crit damage is 150-170. This assumes roughly 60 hp and all saves around +20 (or +15 for will assuming using a skull to handle failed saves there.)

Long term keys to high-end rogue build:
#1 Raphael's - (Legendary necklace) having a crit range of 17-20 is amazing, especially for in-person. It also gives you 2 sneak attacks (3 if you munchkin it with boots of drowkind and a ghost or future henchman)
#2 Bead of guided strike - you'll be amazed at higher levels how many creatures are sneak attack or crit resistance. In person, I can usually slide a 17 or better at least half the time. Losing 75% of your damage due to an immunity takes the wind out of your sails.
#3 Libram of Looting - great to not have to choose for hint or treasure
#4 - Boots of the Four Winds - +5 eldritch damage is pretty great - especially from a foot slot without a lot of competition
#5 - Muk's greater ring of havok - +6 damage is huge - only reason it isn't higher up is competitive ring slots
#6 Kilt of Dungeonbane - Second eldritch item - meaning level 5 plus bonus damage. Usually, I'll point it at dex unless we have no healers, then I'll go Con and make a couple adjustments to the build.

From there - the items depend on which version of a build you do - ranged or strength.
Ranged:
#1 - by a big distance is Assassin's Crossbow - this triples your crit damage. That adds up fast. The problem is this item hasn't been reprinted and goes for a lot of money now. It might be reprinted but, when it does, it is reasonable to expect a nerf in it to make the x3 only on a natural 20.
#1a - Lenses of Agility - it is assumed you have these for any ranged rogue build since you can't sneak attack at ranged without them.
Belt of Deadshot - once you have maxed out slot enhancers, Orion's belt is great until you run out of ioun stones that can help your build. Once you reach that, the belt of deadshot is BiS for ranged builds.
Gloves of Greater Archery - +4 dmg is BiS for range attacks
Cranston's Hat - BiS for head - +2 damage and allows 2 eye slot items (1 is your lenses of agility for every ranged build) - the other is likely a ranged damage bonus.
From there, it is various charms, etc that boost ranged damage. Quite a few of them are rares and easily attainable.

Melee:
#1 One of the nightshade items - they allow your sneak attack damage to be multiplied in crits. I recommend the short sword but the dagger is good as well. Why not the +5 Viper Strike Fang? Oddly, a max build requires 1 fewer token with nightshade than with viper for the same damage. The viper set bonus requires you use slots for the set that detract from overall damage.
#2 Surtur's belt (+7 str). Interestingly, belt of the brave (rare) is amazing even into nightmare for melee builds.
From there, balance to hit items (goggles, etc) and damage items. Unless something is +4 or better str, the best builds are usually straight damage or to-hit. You'll want around +20 to hit for NM and Epic - once you reach that, focus on damage.
#3 Melee Off-hand - Orb of Might or Brawler's horn (depending on if you need the to hit more than the damage)

Fred

This is my current build. Advice and opinions are much appreciated. tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/1fce28bb-7875-4d11-94b5-76c4db3d1442

Looks like this is primarily a melee build. You've got some of the key rogue items, so that's great. (Libram, +2 Rod). HP and saves are low for HC, much less NM. Here are some suggestions.

Cheaper upgrades:
Belt of Ogre Power to Belt of the Brave (nets +1 to melee to-hit and +2 to melee damage)
Fiendish Charm for Charm of the Kraken (eliminates CON hit, -1 AC) or Greater Onyx (eliminates CON hit with no downside)
Charm of Wealful Wind (does little for you) for any inexpensive charm that helps with HP and/or Saves, e.g. Charm of Good Health, Charm of the Abomination, Charm of the Sea Snake.
IS Garnet Prism (does little for you) for IS Jasper Ellipsoid (+2 melee damage)
Cloak of the Footpad for +2 Cloak of Resistance (I'd rather have the saves than conditional damage with Sneak Attacks that you need to tell the DM about)

More expensive, but priorities (IMHO):
Get a Bead of Guided Strike (fills 3rd Bead slot), and drop the Bracers of Guided Strike for whatever version of Charm Bracelets you can afford. Then add Charms such as Charm of Brooching, Charm of Glory, Questor's Charm of Luck, Charm of the Fire Newt, etc.
IS Norse Opal (totally a fine token if you don't have 5 IS) for any IS that adds either HP or saves, e.g., IS Mystic Orb, IS Tanzanite Cube, IS Chaorite Cuboid, IS Sunstone Shard, IS Elfstone Shard.

Bigger ticket items to consider long-term, depending on budget & priorities:

Drop AoTF and get a Necklace of the Sneak or Raphiel's Necklace. Lost treasure can be replaced in whole or in part by upgrading to a Charm of Avarice (much less expensive today than it was a year ago) and/or getting an IS Silver Nugget. (ETA: If you keep Boots of the Underdark, you've already got "no one round delay" for a Sneak Attack even without the class neck, so you could drop the Hood of Shadows for a Crown of Might or even Cranston's, or maybe a Triton Hat or Crown of Iron Will as lower-end options.)

Swap Boots of the Underdark for Boots of the Four Winds (this one is, admittedly, very pricey)

Drop Lenses of Heimdall Sight for Goggles of Instant Analysis

Drop Gloves of Stabbing for Death Knight Gauntlets

Pick up Greaves of Absorption

Get at least any 2 of Lucky Charm, Lucky Cloak, and Lucky Light Mail to boost saves and get +5 HP; a third Lucky item wouldn't hurt. (I see that you can't do Lucky Kilt if you're keeping the Viper Strike set, which is totally reasonable for a melee rogue.)

Consider picking up a Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger (or 2) to use as your thrown ranged weapon.

Adding one more thought: If you're committed to the Viper Strike set, you could spend the money to get a Viper Strike Belt, which would allow you to keep the set bonus while switching the Viper Strike Pants to a Kilt of Dungeonbane, The Kilt is really nice (+5 HP and then a choice of +4 to one of STR/DEX/CON, you'd likely use STR as a melee rogue, but you'd have the option to change it if you play another class or switch to a ranged rogue.) Alternatively, if you got the belt, you could switch the Viper Strike Shirt to the new Arcanum Shirt, which is the start of the new Arcanum Set. Or you could consider switching to a Nightshade melee weapon and have more flexibility with the slots that currently have Viper Strike items.

Richard Harmon wrote: This is my current build. Advice and opinions are much appreciated. tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/1fce28bb-7875-4d11-94b5-76c4db3d1442

I know it is hard to walk awat from items where you have an investment but the viper set isn’t a great path to build.

Consider this build (I took yours and modified it with a few additions and assumptions):

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/05b8c468-61b6-4806-acc9-853d526e7149

Added: necklace of the sneak ($200), ioun stone silver nugget ($200 - you’ll want this one in time anyway), bead of guided strike ($100), greater charm bracelets ($200), nightshade’s dagger ($75), arcane earcuff ($100). Total about $875 for all of these. The arcane earcuff can wait as can the nugget dropping you down into the $600 range . The remaining rares and uncommons and exalted tokens are all pretty inexpensive.

Of the items you have now, there are some you may want to sell: amulet of treasure finding, bracers of guided strike, and earcuff of the phalanx - those aren’t commonly used in later builds. The AoTF has good value due to the new CoA recipe. Best guess, these items would fetch $350-$400 as a group.

The revised build has +10 or better saves (enough for cruising through HC and 2/3 to nightmare.) The base attack to hit is +15 (almost enough for NM) with +17 dmg - overkill for HC but light for NM.

Key items to get;
(Expensive one) raphael’s (about $700)
Nightshade’s dagger is pretty inexpensive (~$75)
belt of the brave (rare) +2 to hit/+2 dmg
Ioun stone jasper elipsoid (rare) +2 dmg
Charm of the fire newt (inexpensive relic - about $20) +2 dmg
Charm of the kraken (ac doesn’t matter so easy str bonus)
Arcane earcuff (adding charm slots is big)
Greater charm bracelets (about $200) +3 cgarm slots
Bead of guided strike (about $100)
Brawler’s horn (rare) +2 to hit

My 2 cents…

Richard Harmon wrote: This is my current build. Advice and opinions are much appreciated. tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/1fce28bb-7875-4d11-94b5-76c4db3d1442

OK, so I see that you are playing a melee build and that at the moment you're using a mix of R and UR tokens, including some key ones like treasure enhancers and +2 Rod of Persuasion.

Your current weapon is the +2 Viper Strike Fang. While the Viper Strike set has a powerful ability, it's unfortunately not aged well over the years and is now rather underpowered unless you have the legendary weapon (Asher's +5 Viper Strike Fang). I know you mentioned in a previous thread that you're not looking to buy legendaries, so while you could switch to a different UR weapon there are other slots in your build which I think it would be better to focus on given that you've already invested in the Viper Strike weapons. If you do switch, a single copy of Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger will work just fine as a melee weapon and free up the slots currently taken up by Viper Strike items.

I'd suggest the below as highest priority:

Tokens that increase your STR
At the moment, your hit and damage modifiers are about right for Normal Mode, but could do with a boost for Hardcore. There are some recent ways to do this which are fairly inexpensive, consider Charm of the Kraken, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Belt of the Brave, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and Ioun Stone Stalker’s Prism to round off your odd STR stat. While Fiendish Charm is one of few low rarity tokens which increase STR, the drawback on it is big enough that I would suggest removing it. If you're happy to buy some high end URs then Ioun Stone Onyx Cube, Ioun Stone Champion's Choice, Greater Onyx Charm, Charm of Champion's Choice all work well, along with Death Knight Gauntlets and Death Knight Mail.

Tokens that increase your saves
Saves become very important as you move up to higher difficulty levels. There are plenty of R and UR tokens which grant save bonuses; I'd suggest Lucky Charm and Lucky Cloak, which grants you +5hp as a set bonus, along with any of Ioun Stone Tanzanite Cube, Ioun Stone Mystic Orb, Questor's Charm of Luck, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead Cleric's Piety, or Bead of the Lucky Traveler as good ways to do this.

General
Given that you already own Amulet of Treasure Finding and Boots of the Underdark, it may be worth focusing more on overall melee damage than specifically Sneak Attack unless you're happy to spend a lot of money on replacing tokens in these slots where you already own fairly good tokens. If you are happy to switch these tokens out though, then Necklace of the Sneak and Death Knight Boots would be my suggestions, and with Necklace of the Sneak you'd be free to focus on building around Sneak Attack.

The same is true for Bracers of Guided Strike; there are better tokens available in this slot such as the Charm Bracelets and transmute chain from those, and you can equip Bead of Guided Strike in its place, but since you already own the Bracers it's likely best to focus on improving your other slots first before thinking about slots which already have useful UR tokens in them.

Your HP is also on the low side, Ioun Stone Elfstone Shard provides the largest single-slot HP bonus in the game so would be the easiest way to increase it.

I hope that helps!

You are definitely survivable at hardcore equipping the twenty stalking tokens from the treasure mix. Figure a complete set of 20 is worth around $15 or less and will get cheaper as we head to GenCon. Keep in mind that TD will provide a weapon for in person runs if you don't have one.

If you are looking at nightmare then you need to equip tokens that significantly increase your damage ability.

Hi Richard, I took your build and made a few changes to it. These focus primarily on inexpensive, readily-available items that were commonly recommended in the thread above. This build has more HP, much higher saves, higher melee to-hit and damage, all at the cost of just 4 AC (IMHO, the difference between 19 AC and 23 AC is marginal, especially if your saves are going to be much higher). These changes would cost about $150, maybe less if you shop around or can make trades.

The big changes here are IS Jasper Ellipsoid, IS Mystic Orb, Charm of Good Health, Crown of Iron Will, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Stout Mail, Belt of the Brave, +2 Cloak of Resistance, and a Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger (a good long-term investment). IS Mystic Orb and Nightshade's are the two most expensive items on the list, but they're selling for less than the usual UR price and are big upgrades. You might notice that some of these swap out conditional sneak attack items for full-time stats. That's intentional, for two reasons. First, in the heat of a live combat, you might not have time to get the DM's attention and point out the conditional bonuses. Second, some combats go more than 1-2 rounds. Might as well have buffs that apply in later rounds, unless you're a huge fan of flanking after using up your sneak attacks.

Some of these are a matter of preference--maybe you'd rather have +2 fire damage from Charm of the Fire Newt than +2 HP and +1 fort save from the Charm of Good Health. Or maybe you'd rather have +10 HP from IS Elfstone Shard from the +2 saves from IS Mystic Orb. There are good reasons to go either way, and depending on your budget, play style, and what kind of groups you often play with, (e.g., if you have a strong healer, you might not need as much HP). Personally, I like having options that I can swap in and out depending on what I know about a dungeon or who else I am playing with. As an example, if I know a run doesn't have a Will save, I might tank my Will saves in favor of more damage, more to-hit, more HP, etc. You could do that with this proposed build by swapping the Crown of Iron Will for something like a Triton Hat. Or, if you get a Brawler's Horn in addition to a Brawler's Mug, you could swap out between +2 to hit and +2 to melee damage as needed.

Richard Harmon Small Upgrades
Class: Rogue

STR: 15
DEX: 19
CON: 12
INT: 11
WIS: 11
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 15 Damage: 12 AC: 19

Range:
Hit: 8 Damage: 4 AC: 20 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 2 Heal: 0 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 15 Fort: 10 Will: 12

Treasure:
Min: 13 Max: 13

Health: 34

Damage Reduction:

Melee	Range	Spell	Fire	Cold	Shock	Sonic	Eldritch	Poison	Darkrift	Sacred	Force	Acid
3	3	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	0

Melee Mainhand: +3 Viper Strike Fang
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Nightshade’s +2 Throwing Dagger
Ranged Offhand: Captain’s Cup
Head: Crown of Iron Will
Eyes: Lenses of Heimdall Sight
Left Ear: Earcuff of the Ravager
Right Ear: Earcuff of the Phalanx
Neck: Amulet of Treasure Finding
Bead: Bead of Bounty
Bead: Bead of Dark Resistance
Torso: Stout Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Back: +2 Cloak of Resistance
Ring: Ring of Heroism
Ring: Ring of Havoc (Melee)
Waist: Belt of the Brave
Shirt: Viper Strike Shirt
Legs: Viper Strike Pants
Shins: Darkguard Greaves
Boots: Boots of the Underdark
Figurine: Figurine of Power: Raven
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Charm of the Kraken
Charm: Charm of Good Health
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Gold Nugget
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Beryl Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Mystic Orb
Slotless: +2 Rod of Persuasion (Slotless)
Slotless: Libram of Looting
Slotless: Masterwork Thieves’ Tools
Slotless: Semi-Lich Skull
Slotless: 1st Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: 5th Tooth of Cavadar
Slotless: 6th Tooth of Cavadar
Runestone: Empty

That said, if you are looking for long-term more expensive changes, some of the first things I'd work on are getting a Bead of Guided Strike and some kind of Charm Bracelets, dropping the Earcuff of the Phalanx for Earcuff of Orbitz or Arcane Earcuff, and upgrading mail and cloak to the Lucky Mail and Lucky Cloak. Also pick up a Greaves of Absorption while it's still in print.

The two biggest questions I see for this build are: (1) will you ever get the class-specific Rogue neck (relic or legendary) and (2) would you ever switch from melee to ranged? Those two would require bigger changes. But with a handful of rares and 2 URs, you can make this a much stronger build.

ETA: This proposed build doesn't quite get all your stats even. Something like a Ring of the Hallowed could be an inexpensive way to do that for STR. Rod of Seven Parts segments are also a good way to do it, but they are slotless and hence a lot more expensive. Also forgot to mention that you might want to pick up some additional Teeth of Cavadar. The prices have come down a lot now that the Skull of Cavadar can no longer be made and Skull Con is over. You could likely pick up Tooth 4 and Tooth 7 for $50 or less, which would give you +2 HP and access to two more psychic powers, including the two I use most often (negate 50% miss chance with incorporeal monsters for a full room and negate the effects of 1 missed Will save).

Thank you everyone your advice and insight is exactly what I was looking for. I did see that some of you gave BIS suggestions I was wondering if there were any more BIS suggestions out there?

BIS is a topic that generates a lot of discussion. Here are some ideas, but YMMV.

For any player:
Kilt of Dungeonbane
Boots of Four Winds
Skull of Cavadar
Rod of Seven Parts
Arcanum Shirt
Charm of Avarice
IS Gold, Silver, and Platinum Nuggets
Bead of Bounty
Boaz’s Bead of Whispers
Luna’s Greater Charm Bracelets
Arcane Earcuff
Earcuff of Orbits
Charm of Glory
Charm of Brooching
Greaves of Absorption
Charm of Awakened Synergy

For a damage-dealer:
Muk’s Greater Ring of Havoc

For a rogue:
Raphiel’s Sneaky Necklace
Bead of Guided Strike

For a melee rogue:
Nightshade’s +2 Short Sword/Nightshade’s +2 Throwing Dagger
Orb of Might
Surtr’s Girdle
Death Knight Gauntlets

For a ranged rogue:
Aron’s Sunhide Robe
Assassin’s +2 Crossbow
Cranston’s Helpful Hat
Lenses of Agility/Lenses of Vital Insight (if using a weapon other than Nightshade’s +2 Throwing Dagger)
Sniper Spectacles/Goggles of the Deadshot
Gloves of Greater Archery/Gloves of the Deadshot