TOPIC: 2021 Rare Feedback

Endgame wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Love how Amulet of Flawsight keeps getting stronger

If I read it correctly, the rogue can’t ignore immune to sneak attack ability now, so I think it lost a pretty big advantage.

If you can sneak it, you can crit it. However, there are a bunch of things you can’t sneak attack.

IMO, this should be reversed

The way I read it, the Rogues now ignore immunity only when making a sneak attack. It's a bit difficult to piece together from the PHB, but the key bit for both sneak attack and crits is "vital anatomy". It seems that:
Sneak Attack Immune == Critical Immune

My (admittedly hopeful) reading of Amulet of Flawsight is that it removes sneak attack immunity AND critical hits for monsters otherwise immune due to lack of vital anatomy. It still wouldn't allow sneak attack due to "immune to surprise".

I like the change because it really targets the core issues I see with sneak attack at Rare and lower level: low melee To Hit on Rogues and half the monsters are outright immune. This targets both those issues while preserving space for UR items, since it's Rogue only and only when you sneak.

Endgame wrote: If the intent is for rare neck to be better than rare ring, amulet of smashing should be +4 2H melee damage. The ring of brilliance is +3 already, and usable by everyone.

+1

Pretty sure the damage wheel is off on the +1 Dwarven sling of smarts. Either that, or it’s better than the repeating sling using 1 less hand.

Marc D wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Love how Amulet of Flawsight keeps getting stronger

If I read it correctly, the rogue can’t ignore immune to sneak attack ability now, so I think it lost a pretty big advantage.

If you can sneak it, you can crit it. However, there are a bunch of things you can’t sneak attack.

IMO, this should be reversed

The way I read it, the Rogues now ignore immunity only when making a sneak attack. It's a bit difficult to piece together from the PHB, but the key bit for both sneak attack and crits is "vital anatomy". It seems that:
Sneak Attack Immune == Critical Immune

My (admittedly hopeful) reading of Amulet of Flawsight is that it removes sneak attack immunity AND critical hits for monsters otherwise immune due to lack of vital anatomy. It still wouldn't allow sneak attack due to "immune to surprise".

I like the change because it really targets the core issues I see with sneak attack at Rare and lower level: low melee To Hit on Rogues and half the monsters are outright immune. This targets both those issues while preserving space for UR items, since it's Rogue only and only when you sneak.

For consistency it would be good to state this directly on the token, otherwise I agree with Arnold and Endgame that it would be better to reverse the effect, letting Rogues ignore Sneak Attack immunity instead of Critical immunity. A new player would likely be disappointed to learn that it only negates something which will very rarely happen (since without the legendary necklace, Rogues will only crit on a natural 20).

Matthew Hayward wrote: Necklace of Carnage - Whoa... under VTD rules where with sufficient to-hit bonuses (e.g. +10 or so on HC, +15 or so on NM) this is worth 8 points of damage a round.

What this puck is worth in terms of average damage, given this to-hit chance:

Puck hit % : Both pucks hit % : Expected dmg per rnd : Comparison - expected dmg/rnd from Barb token

20% :  4% : 0.4 : 0.6
33% : 11% : 1.1 : 1
50% : 25% : 2.5 : 1.5
66% : 44% : 4.4 : 2
75% : 56% : 5.6 : 2.25
80% : 64% : 6.4 : 2.4
90% : 81% : 8.1 : 2.7

This token trounces the Barbarian one once the per-puck hit rate crosses around 40%.

I'd scale this down to 4 or 5, or make it 1 room / game, or 1 or 2 per game.

Please take into consideration that the Ranger has to hit TWICE to get any of this benefit.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Necklace of Carnage - Whoa... under VTD rules where with sufficient to-hit bonuses (e.g. +10 or so on HC, +15 or so on NM) this is worth 8 points of damage a round.

What this puck is worth in terms of average damage, given this to-hit chance:

Puck hit % : Both pucks hit % : Expected dmg per rnd : Comparison - expected dmg/rnd from Barb token

20% :  4% : 0.4 : 0.6
33% : 11% : 1.1 : 1
50% : 25% : 2.5 : 1.5
66% : 44% : 4.4 : 2
75% : 56% : 5.6 : 2.25
80% : 64% : 6.4 : 2.4
90% : 81% : 8.1 : 2.7

This token trounces the Barbarian one once the per-puck hit rate crosses around 40%.

I'd scale this down to 4 or 5, or make it 1 room / game, or 1 or 2 per game.

Please take into consideration that the Ranger has to hit TWICE to get any of this benefit.

The 2nd column is the probability of the ranger hitting twice, given the odds that either puck hits as set in the first column.

The 3rd column are the average damage per round given the odds that each puck hits with the chance of the value in the first column, or both pucks hit with the value in the 2nd column.

Arnold wrote: Amulet of Flawsight ignores Critical immunity but not Sneak Attack immunity?

Maybe "Critical Attack" immunity encompasses Sneak Attack Immunity?

There are a few monsters that do not have Critical Immunity, but because of lots of sensors they are immune to Sneak Attacks. A beholder comes to mind. They are pretty rare, however.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Could Pendant of Surging gain:

You may equip when also equipping Shaman's Greater Necklace or Iktomi's Shaper Necklace

?

We will tweak all the class Relics and Legendaries after this process is over. It would have been better to design all of these at one time, but that is something a smart person would have done. Stay tuned.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Necklace of Carnage - Whoa... under VTD rules where with sufficient to-hit bonuses (e.g. +10 or so on HC, +15 or so on NM) this is worth 8 points of damage a round.

What this puck is worth in terms of average damage, given this to-hit chance:

Puck hit % : Both pucks hit % : Expected dmg per rnd : Comparison - expected dmg/rnd from Barb token

20% :  4% : 0.4 : 0.6
33% : 11% : 1.1 : 1
50% : 25% : 2.5 : 1.5
66% : 44% : 4.4 : 2
75% : 56% : 5.6 : 2.25
80% : 64% : 6.4 : 2.4
90% : 81% : 8.1 : 2.7

This token trounces the Barbarian one once the per-puck hit rate crosses around 40%.

I'd scale this down to 4 or 5, or make it 1 room / game, or 1 or 2 per game.

Please take into consideration that the Ranger has to hit TWICE to get any of this benefit.

The 2nd column is the probability of the ranger hitting twice, given the odds that either puck hits as set in the first column.

The 3rd column are the average damage per round given the odds that each puck hits with the chance of the value in the first column, or both pucks hit with the value in the 2nd column.

For what it’s worth, here is a level 4 ranger build using 4*s, rares, and uncommons that has +13 hit. Pretty sure this could manage carnage every round on normal and maybe even hardcore with a bard and cleric.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=568&id=248764#349113

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Could Pendant of Surging gain:

You may equip when also equipping Shaman's Greater Necklace or Iktomi's Shaper Necklace

?

We will tweak all the class Relics and Legendaries after this process is over. It would have been better to design all of these at one time, but that is something a smart person would have done. Stay tuned.

Jeff - Considering all other Class Relic/Legendary necks can stack with their UR counterparts can we get the same for this year just for consistency?

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Necklace of Carnage - Whoa... under VTD rules where with sufficient to-hit bonuses (e.g. +10 or so on HC, +15 or so on NM) this is worth 8 points of damage a round.

What this puck is worth in terms of average damage, given this to-hit chance:

Puck hit % : Both pucks hit % : Expected dmg per rnd : Comparison - expected dmg/rnd from Barb token

20% :  4% : 0.4 : 0.6
33% : 11% : 1.1 : 1
50% : 25% : 2.5 : 1.5
66% : 44% : 4.4 : 2
75% : 56% : 5.6 : 2.25
80% : 64% : 6.4 : 2.4
90% : 81% : 8.1 : 2.7

This token trounces the Barbarian one once the per-puck hit rate crosses around 40%.

I'd scale this down to 4 or 5, or make it 1 room / game, or 1 or 2 per game.

Please take into consideration that the Ranger has to hit TWICE to get any of this benefit.

The 2nd column is the probability of the ranger hitting twice, given the odds that either puck hits as set in the first column.

The 3rd column are the average damage per round given the odds that each puck hits with the chance of the value in the first column, or both pucks hit with the value in the 2nd column.

For what it’s worth, here is a level 4 ranger build using 4*s, rares, and uncommons that has +13 hit. Pretty sure this could manage carnage every round on normal and maybe even hardcore with a bard and cleric.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=568&id=248764#349113

I wonder. Would an existing Best in Slot Ranger benefit from dropping their existing UR necklace in favor of this rare?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Necklace of Carnage - Whoa... under VTD rules where with sufficient to-hit bonuses (e.g. +10 or so on HC, +15 or so on NM) this is worth 8 points of damage a round.

What this puck is worth in terms of average damage, given this to-hit chance:

Puck hit % : Both pucks hit % : Expected dmg per rnd : Comparison - expected dmg/rnd from Barb token

20% :  4% : 0.4 : 0.6
33% : 11% : 1.1 : 1
50% : 25% : 2.5 : 1.5
66% : 44% : 4.4 : 2
75% : 56% : 5.6 : 2.25
80% : 64% : 6.4 : 2.4
90% : 81% : 8.1 : 2.7

This token trounces the Barbarian one once the per-puck hit rate crosses around 40%.

I'd scale this down to 4 or 5, or make it 1 room / game, or 1 or 2 per game.

Please take into consideration that the Ranger has to hit TWICE to get any of this benefit.

The 2nd column is the probability of the ranger hitting twice, given the odds that either puck hits as set in the first column.

The 3rd column are the average damage per round given the odds that each puck hits with the chance of the value in the first column, or both pucks hit with the value in the 2nd column.

For what it’s worth, here is a level 4 ranger build using 4*s, rares, and uncommons that has +13 hit. Pretty sure this could manage carnage every round on normal and maybe even hardcore with a bard and cleric.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=568&id=248764#349113

I wonder. Would an existing Best in Slot Ranger benefit from dropping their existing UR necklace in favor of this rare?

In VtD I’d give up stus for this in a heartbeat.

-1.5 damage per puck for +10 when both hit.

I’d have to hit on both less than 1/3 for the rare to not improve my damage

Practically maybe not - as getting this to trigger will take up dm time.