TOPIC: 2021 Rare Feedback Part Two

Endgame wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Necklace of the Sharpshooter - Burn it with fire. Yes, the last Ranger neck item was too powerful. However, Ranger relics and legendary are literal paperweights for anyone not playing ranged "for flavor." Let's not have another uniquely important class token that should only be used by a small subset of the class, please.

I think this is TPTB telling you that if you're not playing a ranged ranger, you're playing off theme. I like this token - a rare melee ranger has plenty of power and slides 2 pucks, while a rare ranged ranger, prior to this token, does less than a single melee ranger puck.

If it was "off theme" the prior iteration would not have been a melee-only bonus.

I think the intent is instead to make Ranged version of the Ranger similarly useful at the rare level to the melee version. Less sliding skill ceiling with 1 puck, higher single puck damage bonus with class card and necklace, higher to hit with necklace. It makes both builds viable at rare.

It's going to do nothing for the UR+ Ranger but honestly that's NOT what these necklaces are designed for.

I get the intent. I have two problems with doing that this way:

1. There's no comparable token for melee ranger, so it excludes half the class or more.
2. Because of the lack of a comparable melee token, it steers players to ranged. I don't like that because it steers new players to a sub-optimal playstyle.

1. The comparable melee ranger rare tokens are Amulet of Vigor and Amulet of shock. It's a shame there aren't more awesome rare Neck items, but hopefully this improves over time.

2. If we don't print new ranged improving tokens, it will remain a sub optimal play style.

Those tokens are neither comparable in power nor in this set.

I am not against printing ranged tokens, but I do not think the class-specific neck item should be a paperweight for half or more of the players of a class.

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Necklace of the Sharpshooter - Burn it with fire. Yes, the last Ranger neck item was too powerful. However, Ranger relics and legendary are literal paperweights for anyone not playing ranged "for flavor." Let's not have another uniquely important class token that should only be used by a small subset of the class, please.

I think this is TPTB telling you that if you're not playing a ranged ranger, you're playing off theme. I like this token - a rare melee ranger has plenty of power and slides 2 pucks, while a rare ranged ranger, prior to this token, does less than a single melee ranger puck.

If it was "off theme" the prior iteration would not have been a melee-only bonus.

I think the intent is instead to make Ranged version of the Ranger similarly useful at the rare level to the melee version. Less sliding skill ceiling with 1 puck, higher single puck damage bonus with class card and necklace, higher to hit with necklace. It makes both builds viable at rare.

It's going to do nothing for the UR+ Ranger but honestly that's NOT what these necklaces are designed for.

I get the intent. I have two problems with doing that this way:

1. There's no comparable token for melee ranger, so it excludes half the class or more.
2. Because of the lack of a comparable melee token, it steers players to ranged. I don't like that because it steers new players to a sub-optimal playstyle.

1. The comparable melee ranger rare tokens are Amulet of Vigor and Amulet of shock. It's a shame there aren't more awesome rare Neck items, but hopefully this improves over time.

2. If we don't print new ranged improving tokens, it will remain a sub optimal play style.

Those tokens are neither comparable in power nor in this set.

I am not against printing ranged tokens, but I do not think the class-specific neck item should be a paperweight for half or more of the players of a class.

Amulet of vigor gives +1/+1 on 2 pucks vs +2 / +2 on one puck. And it gives +3 hp - you're right, advantage: Vigor.

Amulet of Shock gives +2 damage on 2 pucks, vs 1.

Melee ranger is not lacking and with the other recent tokens is well ahead of ranged.

Take a look here for the slightly out of date comparisons (where the melee ranger gets better and the ranged one does not)
www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=568&id=248764

Endgame wrote: Amulet of vigor gives +1/+1 on 2 pucks vs +2 / +2 on one puck. And it gives +3 hp - you're right, advantage: Vigor.

Amulet of Shock gives +2 damage on 2 pucks, vs 1.

Melee ranger is not lacking and with the other recent tokens is well ahead of ranged.

Take a look here for the slightly out of date comparisons (where the melee ranger gets better and the ranged one does not)
www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=568&id=248764

+2+2 on one puck is better than +1/+1 on two pucks because the single puck is more likely to hit. I'll give you that with the 3 HP from it, the power level is about the same.

Amulet of Shock is not an appropriate comparison because it is a completion token and therefore should be more comparable than a standard pack rare.

However, all of that misses the point. The point of this series of tokens is supposed to be "something cool for every class" at the red level for folks who can't afford a class legendary. It's not the power level that's an issue, it's leaving out half the class from the "cool thing."

If TPTB wants to add a Ranged token this year, 0 problem with that. I'm not in favor for leaving half a class in the dust on a once-a-year class specific item though.

Edit: If it was +2/+2 with ranged or +1/+1 with melee, I wouldn't have this problem (Although I might have a different problem depending on the overall power of the other class tokens).

Plate of the Forge: maybe +6 and 4 fire? +7 and 3 fire?
Maybe it is fine as +7 because Shark Tooth is untyped and this gives a type, so they each have their place?

What is the justification for toning down Scroll Lightning?

Bard amulet feels incredibly weak given Lyre of Lore and Lyre of Echoes. I thought the point was to give a powerful neck slot option at rare that is still below UR strength for the classes? Can it please be either +1 hit/damage for bardsong or “can perform another action during bardsong 1/room”

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote: Amulet of vigor gives +1/+1 on 2 pucks vs +2 / +2 on one puck. And it gives +3 hp - you're right, advantage: Vigor.

Amulet of Shock gives +2 damage on 2 pucks, vs 1.

Melee ranger is not lacking and with the other recent tokens is well ahead of ranged.

Take a look here for the slightly out of date comparisons (where the melee ranger gets better and the ranged one does not)
www.truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=568&id=248764

+2+2 on one puck is better than +1/+1 on two pucks because the single puck is more likely to hit. I'll give you that with the 3 HP from it, the power level is about the same.

Amulet of Shock is not an appropriate comparison because it is a completion token and therefore should be more comparable than a standard pack rare.

However, all of that misses the point. The point of this series of tokens is supposed to be "something cool for every class" at the red level for folks who can't afford a class legendary. It's not the power level that's an issue, it's leaving out half the class from the "cool thing."

If TPTB wants to add a Ranged token this year, 0 problem with that. I'm not in favor for leaving half a class in the dust on a once-a-year class specific item though.

Edit: If it was +2/+2 with ranged or +1/+1 with melee, I wouldn't have this problem (Although I might have a different problem depending on the overall power of the other class tokens).

That seems like it might be a good suggestion?

+2/+2 with Ranged weapons or +1/+1 with Melee weapons (choose at adventure start)

That way it's a nice boost for whichever form of Ranger you want to play without double dipping for too strong of a bonus?

Anthony Barnstable wrote: What is the justification for toning down Scroll Lightning?

Existing lightning scroll deals 12 damage

No Rare scroll exists that deals more than 12 damage. The single exception being 15 damage and only usable in a room with a dead monster and the scroll consumes the corpse.

The scroll was specifically bumped from 12 to 14 when the spellbook did not trigger a spellcheck in order to create a scroll that was superior to a level 1 spell at Rare level.

Plate of the Forge: Should read "+7 AC and Deals 4 pts of fire damage to any monster that hits wearer in melee"

Dwarven Drinking Gloves: change image to leather gloves to match transmute

Wand of the Fire Snake: Change name to "Wand of the Salamander". Such an under appreciated old school monster.

I really like the concept of class specific amulets at rare level. As others have mentioned it does really skew towards Philosopher's Stones this year. One way I thought of to slightly mitigate that would be to save the Crown of Focus for next year and replace it with Pants of Focus (at +1 just like the crown) and then rename the UR to something like Pants of Greater Focus at the +2 it is currently at.

If Scroll Lightning Bolt is going to stay at 12 damage (which I approve of) perhaps consider making it a reprint of the functionally identical Scroll Lightning Strike from 2011.

Matt Goodman wrote: Can Redstone go the way of +1 Thrall Faerie-Iron Skull (Thrown, once per combat)? Even if you have to drop the damage down and remove the AC 15 hit, I think it would be better and more widely used. As it stands, I can't see many people throwing 1/25 of an aragonite away on each slide.

For reference, +1 Thrall Faerie-Iron Skull is a rare, thrown weapon that converts to aragonite with damage wheel of 2, 3, 4, 5.

Yeah...this has been an issue for many years. I am going to bump up the average damage big time to make this item worth sliding. From now on, they will also have some kind of monster they do extra damage -- like Undead this year.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think I know the answer, but for an abundance of clarity:

If someone wearing Robe of the Sage and using a Greater Arcane Scroll Tube casts Scroll Holy Fire, the result is:

1 damage to all monsters, a pool of 3 damage distributed how caster desires
1 healing to all players, a pool of 2 healing distributed how caster desires

Right?

(e.g. It doesn't become 4 damage to all monsters and 3 healing to all players.)

Your last statement is correct. BTW, thanks for all the great feedback!

Daniel White wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Daniel White wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Daniel White wrote: Necklace of the Sharpshooter - Burn it with fire. Yes, the last Ranger neck item was too powerful. However, Ranger relics and legendary are literal paperweights for anyone not playing ranged "for flavor." Let's not have another uniquely important class token that should only be used by a small subset of the class, please.

I think this is TPTB telling you that if you're not playing a ranged ranger, you're playing off theme. I like this token - a rare melee ranger has plenty of power and slides 2 pucks, while a rare ranged ranger, prior to this token, does less than a single melee ranger puck.

If it was "off theme" the prior iteration would not have been a melee-only bonus.

I think the intent is instead to make Ranged version of the Ranger similarly useful at the rare level to the melee version. Less sliding skill ceiling with 1 puck, higher single puck damage bonus with class card and necklace, higher to hit with necklace. It makes both builds viable at rare.

It's going to do nothing for the UR+ Ranger but honestly that's NOT what these necklaces are designed for.

I get the intent. I have two problems with doing that this way:

1. There's no comparable token for melee ranger, so it excludes half the class or more.
2. Because of the lack of a comparable melee token, it steers players to ranged. I don't like that because it steers new players to a sub-optimal playstyle.

Hi, actual Ranger main here actually equipped at the level where this neck would make a difference. The last year or two I've been playing ranged because Boom Stick is just *so* fun that I can't resist, but I cannot deny the fact that playing ranged is a huge nerf to my combat abilities.

Aside from having a +2 melee mainhand and the aforementioned +2 Boom Stick, I'm about as well-equipped as you can get under the UR level (mostly rares, some 3 and 4 star transmutes), and I have both melee and ranged builds.

My ranged build is +10/+9 damage/to hit, and my melee build is +10/+10.

Sure, my ranged character has 2 more AC, +2-3 to each save, and 9 more HP, but that doesn't even come close to making up for giving up half my attacks if I'm actually trying to maximize damage as opposed to having fun with my Boom Stick.

Plus, my melee character is far more likely to do a non-zero damage at range (+8/+2) than my ranged character is at melee (+3/-1 -- yes, you read that right).

I suppose a neck like this is a step in the right direction, but I agree that it's going to take a LOT more than a few rare items to make the Sharpshooter ability on the Ranger's card feel like more than trinket text.

(Seriously, though, if we want to steer new players to sub-optimal playstyles, isn't that why Rogue exists?)