TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Rare Token Images!

With the cleric neck going back to what it was the first try, any chance we could get those powers back on the relic/legendary?

Ian Lee wrote: One thing about the class legendaries is that the idea of focusing on specific classes doesn't pass down through the rarities. Consider that the comparative advantage of fighters is supposed to be hitting more often, then give rangers a massive to hit bonus. Just an observation, the forums really could use more people commenting who actually are affected by rare tokens.

Hi! Ranger main here who currently has...*checks Character Gen app*...15 red tokens equipped. The only UR tokens I own are a +2 Deadly Drow Blood Mace and a +2 Boom Stick. I think I qualify.

I currently have an Exalted Creeper Amulet (+4 DEX) that was an impulse buy at Gen Con in my neck slot. The amount I paid for that one token is roughly equal to my entire token budget most years. (trades from treasure box pulls nonwithstanding)

And I would drop it for this necklace in a heartbeat, regardless of whether I'm playing Melee or Ranged.

My ranged build goes from +10 to hit to +12 with this necklace...and my melee build goes from +10 to +13. Granted, my melee build's AC becomes "we have a healer, right?" at this point, but that's nothing a couple healing potions can't fix.

I'm not sure what my point is - other than why do I get to have a better to-hit bonus when I'm attacking twice than when I'm only attacking once (and each of those hits is also +1 damage compared to my ranged damage) - but there you go.

Marc D wrote: But the fighters are also the KISS class. Don't have to remember a lot of stuff. Just slide and hit.

Funny, that's the exact reason I picked Ranger. Except it's "slide, hit, and don't worry if you didn't hit, because you got a second slide for free."

Marc D wrote: And they already hit more often at Rare. They have baked in +2 to hit, slide one puck,

A 10% increased chance to hit doesn't even come close to matching the increase you get from sliding twice.

Allen John wrote:

Marc D wrote: But the fighters are also the KISS class. Don't have to remember a lot of stuff. Just slide and hit.

Funny, that's the exact reason I picked Ranger. Except it's "slide, hit, and don't worry if you didn't hit, because you got a second slide for free."

Interesting! I suppose there's not a lot more to remember as Ranger vs. Fighter.

Marc D wrote: And they already hit more often at Rare. They have baked in +2 to hit, slide one puck,

A 10% increased chance to hit doesn't even come close to matching the increase you get from sliding twice.

You're more coordinated than many of the PUG rangers I see then... I've seen a lot of wild pucks from Rangers and Monks. But, yeah, point taken.

So, what would you like to see then in the Rare Ranger neck item?

Prefer and far more accurate slider using single puck as a ranger due to significant practice in college due to each shuffleboard game cost and a beer was on the losing team. Had to keep my cost down.

Agreed with you on the Monks - most of the Monks I've seen in pick-up groups are barely capable of even performing an FoB legally, let alone well. And for obvious reasons, it's quite rare for me to see anyone else perform a Ranger attack, so I don't have a good base for comparison there.

I'm probably also overestimating my skill a bit - it's been a couple years aside from that time I tried to pass the valkyrie's slide-on-the-shield skill test by dual-wielding (at which I failed miserably).

There's also the fact that I'm comparing my specific builds, which specifically use a token that boosts ranged hit but not melee hit, so I don't get the full benefit from the ranged token. I'm also comparing a neck token from the "neck tokens matter" era to a token from 2016, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised that this token matters as much as it does.

As you noted, the problem is that the 4th level Ranger card gives you basically nothing to work with. And a rare item isn't really the place to fix balance issues, so trying to somehow nerf melee with it by making ranged more appealing is never going to work either.

What I *personally* would want to see is some sort of rare-level version of Charm of Shadow Shot, because the biggest (non-balance-related) bummer about playing Ranged to me is only getting to slide one puck, but I realize that will never happen for at least five different reasons.

After thinking about it for way too long, I think the biggest problem is that it's too easy to stack +hit in melee, negating the supposed downside of the more erratic slides. Who cares how well you can slide if you hit on a 4? Obviously, that genie's been out of the bottle forever so there's nothing that can be done about it now, unfortunately. In my mind, the Ranger *should* be choosing between one super-reliable ranged attack or two less-reliable melee attacks, but due to the way the game has been designed, that didn't pan out.

If it was up to me, I'd probably make the neck +4 ranged / +2 melee (double the hits = half the bonus to each, right?), but I admit I'm probably biased.

To be consistent, on the Figurine of Power: Saluki, the 'm' in melee should be capitalized.

Amulet of Flawsight: the calculations become very difficult for character generators and for DMs when there are monsters that can be sneak attacked but not criticalled, especially considering all prior token design. I would rather see this as “can sneak attack and critical any monster that can be surprised”. *Possibly* add +1 to hit with Sneak Attack. That seems to still fit with the power level of rare class neck.

Amulet of Perfect Form: substantially different from the Monk class neck tokens. Seems okay but maybe too weak to actually see play? There is a rare neck item that imbues Psychic Power and class neck items for Monk have a Psychic focus, maybe add “imbues Psychic Power”? Possibly, swap “heals 2 HP” with “deals +2 total damage” if both FoB slides hit? If I were a R Monk, this would be competing against Amulet of Shock, which deals +2 shock to both of my attacks. Heal 2 HP if I hit with both vs deal 2 or 4 more damage depending on what I hit with seems like I will choose Shock. Deal 2 more damage and get Psychic Power makes me think more about my choice.

Amulet of Smashing: seems perfect.

Medallion of Inner Faith: fits well in the proposed paths of class relic/legendary. I like the idea of it for the cleric. Would it be too powerful as “Heal 1 HP as FA 1/room”? Would that make it worse in the opinion of Clerics?

Medallion of Keenness: seems perfect.

Medallion of Magick: seems perfect as is, lets the Wizards recast a skill check spell or a slide spell depending on their style and lets them cast more times before running out while still getting spell bonuses. This would be great for me if I didn’t have AoTF in my neck slot and if I wasn’t considering relic/legendary.

Necklace of the Songbird: this one seems so weak. The R Bars already has Lyre or Lore and Lyre of Echoes. This lets them play Lyre of Echoes while doing the Lore check in round 1 so they can attack in round 2 instead of doing Lore then Echoes then attack round 3? It is a minor upgrade but a weird set of interactions to get there. I still propose either making it a baked in lure of echoes (bardsong lasts for 1 round after bars stops playing), or it should be a 1/room Lute of multiaction (bard can perform a different standard action while performing bardsong 1/room), or it should keep Lyre of Lore and modify the song slightly (Bard can perform Lore check while performing bardsong, bardsong +1 to hit, +3 DEX).

Necklace of the Woodlands: it seems like the melee bonus still outshines the range bonus? A difference of +1 is pretty small especially when it involves an extra slider. I tried thinking about the Ranger class relic/legendary, both of which add CON and ranged damage. Maybe “+2 CON, +1 to hit in melee, +3 to hit/+1 damage for ranged attacks”? Is that too much? Too weak?

Pendant of Surging: seems perfect. I would love that as R Druid.

Pendant of the Pure: for simplicity, could it just be +2 retribution damage so it is more easily recorded on the party card? Conditional effects get missed more often and it seems like such a minor upgrade. I see the extra guard as coming from the legendary or effectively replacing Grace at a lower rarity, I think of the retribution damage as offsetting the instant kill, could this maybe add “+5 to Lay on Hands”?

Plate of the Forge: this was mentioned in a previous pass. My guess is this is okay as is because Fire is a common monster resistance. But maybe one more consideration for “+6 AC, 4 Fire retribution”

Robe of the Sage: I like it.

Sandals of Humble Reward: another great addition!

Scroll Lightning Bolt: one more hope of bumping it back up to 14 damage now that Jinn’s is gone?

Allen John wrote: Agreed with you on the Monks - most of the Monks I've seen in pick-up groups are barely capable of even performing an FoB legally, let alone well. And for obvious reasons, it's quite rare for me to see anyone else perform a Ranger attack, so I don't have a good base for comparison there.

I'm probably also overestimating my skill a bit - it's been a couple years aside from that time I tried to pass the valkyrie's slide-on-the-shield skill test by dual-wielding (at which I failed miserably).

There's also the fact that I'm comparing my specific builds, which specifically use a token that boosts ranged hit but not melee hit, so I don't get the full benefit from the ranged token. I'm also comparing a neck token from the "neck tokens matter" era to a token from 2016, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised that this token matters as much as it does.

As you noted, the problem is that the 4th level Ranger card gives you basically nothing to work with. And a rare item isn't really the place to fix balance issues, so trying to somehow nerf melee with it by making ranged more appealing is never going to work either.

What I *personally* would want to see is some sort of rare-level version of Charm of Shadow Shot, because the biggest (non-balance-related) bummer about playing Ranged to me is only getting to slide one puck, but I realize that will never happen for at least five different reasons.

After thinking about it for way too long, I think the biggest problem is that it's too easy to stack +hit in melee, negating the supposed downside of the more erratic slides. Who cares how well you can slide if you hit on a 4? Obviously, that genie's been out of the bottle forever so there's nothing that can be done about it now, unfortunately. In my mind, the Ranger *should* be choosing between one super-reliable ranged attack or two less-reliable melee attacks, but due to the way the game has been designed, that didn't pan out.

If it was up to me, I'd probably make the neck +4 ranged / +2 melee (double the hits = half the bonus to each, right?), but I admit I'm probably biased.

That's a lot of really good observations.

The mini Charm of Shadow Shot is a really interesting idea. The Paladin token gives a mini-Amulet of Guarding, it may not be out of bounds. Honestly the biggest issue I see is text space, as others requested that the Ranger Rare capstone item support both styles of Ranger play.

Alternate to that, what would be your thoughts on mixing up the bonuses:
Ranged: +4 to hit
Melee: +2 to damage; alternate: +6 to damage if both pucks hit

Medallion of Keenness grants 19+ crit range to 1 handed ranged and melee weapons.

Legendary Viv's Amulet of Noble Might grants it to 1-handed melee weapons.

Not sure if it's intended that the Rare grant it to ranged weapons as well.

Pendant of the Pure: Missing an l in "ally"

Matthew Hayward wrote: Medallion of Keenness grants 19+ crit range to 1 handed ranged and melee weapons.

Legendary Viv's Amulet of Noble Might grants it to 1-handed melee weapons.

Not sure if it's intended that the Rare grant it to ranged as well.

To be fair, the Medallion of Keenness requires that you use a shield, whereas the legendary does not (although the legendary provides bonuses for shields). It's probably not that big a restriction, but it does rule out useful things at Rare level like Brawler's Horn/Mug, or Orb of Might for someone stepping up.

Also, there are 14 one-handed reusable Ranged weapons. That is, Ranged weapons that aren't thrown (one use/combat) or single use. I understand wanting to keep things parallel though.

Jeff Martin wrote:

NightGod wrote: Is the retribution damage on Pendant of the Pure only when they're using the power of the pendant to call an extra ally to guard or is it anytime they use guard?

Anytime you are Guarding.

I'm not sure the "while guarding" part is necessary. Retribution damage is recorded on the party card and since this would be conditional retribution damage the player would have to remind the DM to add another 2 points because they are guarding. I don't think it would be overpowered to have 2 points of retribution damage all the time for the sake of simplicity.