TOPIC: ONYX Transmuted Tokens

So...just based on what I understand of the Onyx token print runs, it appears that no onyx versions (nor platinum versions, for that matter) exist of the various transmuted tokens.

Is this correct? And, is there any chance such versions could become available in the future? Just seems like something good to know for collectors. Probably obvious, but figured I'd ask explicitly...

Wonder what the additional cost would be fair for transmuting to onyx (maybe add a special to the formula) or if you'd come at it another way like onyx transmutes at the token parties or by mail for the first 2 months. Maybe randomly seed a few into the treasure generators. Or just add them to the purchasing incentives.

Maybe add in an Ultra-Rare to get an Onyx version? That might help clear out some of the excess UR's.

Garrison wrote: So...just based on what I understand of the Onyx token print runs, it appears that no onyx versions (nor platinum versions, for that matter) exist of the various transmuted tokens.

Is this correct?

That is correct. Onyx and Platinum versions of Transmuted tokens to not exist. Most Transmuted tokens come on Gold tokens, the current exceptions being Eldritch Items have a Green token and Legendary Items have Orange Tokens.

Garrison wrote: And, is there any chance such versions could become available in the future? Just seems like something good to know for collectors. Probably obvious, but figured I'd ask explicitly...

I'm not sure if this question has been asked before... but Jeff would be the one to ask regarding this.

Mike Steele wrote: Maybe add in an Ultra-Rare to get an Onyx version? That might help clear out some of the excess UR's.

Reducing sales/trade pricing on older, non-optimal URs would also clear out excess URs.

Toran wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Maybe add in an Ultra-Rare to get an Onyx version? That might help clear out some of the excess UR's.

Reducing sales/trade pricing on older, non-optimal URs would also clear out excess URs.

Well, having people reduce prices might move them from one hand to another, but it wouldn't remove them from circulation. And prices on them are dropping steadily due to a higher supply than demand.

Having them as part of a turn-in recipe would remove them from circulation, which would help clear out a glut of lesser UR's.

"out of circulation" is ambiguous. For example, there is a complete set of 2012 onyx tokens that's OOC in the sense that I'm never going to sell or break it up. It still exists, of course...

So what is the goal of taking URs OOC? Is it to buoy the prices so they don't keep dropping?

If so, I'd suggest that adding the fourth track will help with that. TD is growing, more people can play, and existing players can go on more runs. All that will increase demand for older tokens and help keep prices up. Making random URs an ingredient will also increase demand and lower suppply, unless the URs end up in treasure boxes - then the supply stays the same and prices won't stay as high as they would if Jeff shredded them.

Which, as a collector, I'd hate to see. I'll never get a complete set if the old ones all get burned up.

Mike Steele wrote:

Toran wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Maybe add in an Ultra-Rare to get an Onyx version? That might help clear out some of the excess UR's.

Reducing sales/trade pricing on older, non-optimal URs would also clear out excess URs.

Well, having people reduce prices might move them from one hand to another, but it wouldn't remove them from circulation. And prices on them are dropping steadily due to a higher supply than demand.

Having them as part of a turn-in recipe would remove them from circulation, which would help clear out a glut of lesser UR's.

I see no purpose in removing them from circulation. Isn't it optimal, considering the fact there is an ever-increasing number of TD players, to see older, less valuable URs eventually get into the hands of newer players when the price of the UR in either gold or cash reaches the point where the more casual player finds it acceptable to acquire it?

I think it's better to have casual players acquiring less desirable URs than to shred URs in order to keep value for collectors and big-money token buyers artificially high.

Different priorities, perhaps.

Toran wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Toran wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Maybe add in an Ultra-Rare to get an Onyx version? That might help clear out some of the excess UR's.

Reducing sales/trade pricing on older, non-optimal URs would also clear out excess URs.

Well, having people reduce prices might move them from one hand to another, but it wouldn't remove them from circulation. And prices on them are dropping steadily due to a higher supply than demand.

Having them as part of a turn-in recipe would remove them from circulation, which would help clear out a glut of lesser UR's.

I see no purpose in removing them from circulation. Isn't it optimal, considering the fact there is an ever-increasing number of TD players, to see older, less valuable URs eventually get into the hands of newer players when the price of the UR in either gold or cash reaches the point where the more casual player finds it acceptable to acquire it?

I think it's better to have casual players acquiring less desirable URs than to shred URs in order to keep value for collectors and big-money token buyers artificially high.

Different priorities, perhaps.

I'm not thinking about doing it to retain value for collectors, I'm thinking of doing it to help keep the token economy healthy and keep token sales healthy (which keeps True Dungeon healthy). Just like when there was a serious glut of common/uncommon/rare tokens and trade item tokens were introduced to pull excess tokens off the market, there is forming a serious glut of Ultra-Rare tokens, and something should be done to get them out of the market.

If not, and if as a result prices continue to drop, it may reach the point where people decide that they aren't getting their money's worth out of buying tokens because they become worth significantly less than they paid for them, and that could harm True Dungeon token sales and True Dungeon itself. It is in True Dungeon's interest to try to keep a balance between supply and demand. In my opinion of course

Mike Steele wrote: ...if as a result prices continue to drop, it may reach the point where people decide that they aren't getting their money's worth out of buying tokens because they become worth significantly less than they paid for them, and that could harm True Dungeon token sales and True Dungeon itself. It is in True Dungeon's interest to try to keep a balance between supply and demand.

Part of the price drops might also be the simple fact that every token decreases in play value over time, because new tokens with different abilities arrive to vie for its slot. Make enough powerful amulets and even Horn of Plenty owners will start to reconsider whether to wear it (assuming they do runs for the fun of the game more than token profit).

Similarly, price drop really hits the transmuted items hard. Regardless of how cool they are, they are simply not worth (in game terms) the cost to make them. It is much better for your character (and more fun, I think) to buy 3 or 4 purples off of eBay than to buy one relic transmuted for the $400+ cost it actually took the token owner to create the relic, what with all the trade tokens used and such.

The result is that transmuted items usually sell for much less, and their creator loses value, and so is less likely to see the value in making large token purchases. Even if they want one of every transmuted item for collection purposes, it would be far easier and cheaper for them to do what I do - buy them off eBay. Sure, some people enjoy the creation process enough to be willing to "waste" hundreds of dollars for the privilege of creating the item themselves, but this is a relatively small number of people and True Dungeon can't rely on them to always be buying tons of tokens they will never use and would lose value on.

Overall I'm very worried that the explosive token economy is too artificial to be sustainable. The cash sure helps True Dungeon, I'm sure, but one or two PYP orders is more than enough to get every token in a year's set aside from the purples and transmuted, and the large additional amount of cash obtaining those tokens is disproportional to the actual value those tokens have in the game, hence they will always go down in real world value.

One may argue that the collectors market gives them value despite this, but the TD collection market is not Magic: The Gathering. Maybe it will be one day, in which case the TD collectors will be sitting pretty (but then again, many formerly expensive Magic cards are now worthless; collecting is always somewhat of a gamble). But at the moment I don't see any reason for prices to do anything but go down. Because of this, I will simply never create a Legendary item; far too expensive for what you get, and it's highly likely that the only people who would be willing to buy one off of me are those who would have made their own anyway. If you tried to sell a Legendary, I doubt you would get half of what it took you to create it.

I think the token economy explosion worked well for what it intended to do, but is fundamentally unsustainable and something new needs to be explored.

I agree with everything you said, Garrison. I don't think that it's realistic to believe that tokens will continue to maintain value (especially those that have had inflated prices, such as the HoP). The only way to maintain those pricing levels would be to try to do so artificially; having the HoP on a "reserve list" did this for a while, but the only way to have a higher likelihood to maintain those high values would be to never print a truly competitive token in the neck slot. I think that's bad for the game long-term, too; the resistance to competitive tokens in the neck slot has been high, but I don't know that it's sustainable in the long run.

I've got an ever-growing collection of tokens; some of them (e.g. the Celestial set) have decreased in value significantly since I bought them. That said--I've never had an expectation that they'll maintain value. I've always figured that they'd drop in value over time, and that "power creep" (to which so many are opposed) will be necessary to keep the token economy alive. If we keep reprinting and maintain the same power level, the token economy will become so saturated that it will no longer be sustainable (without some other factor changing).

Garrison wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: ...if as a result prices continue to drop, it may reach the point where people decide that they aren't getting their money's worth out of buying tokens because they become worth significantly less than they paid for them, and that could harm True Dungeon token sales and True Dungeon itself. It is in True Dungeon's interest to try to keep a balance between supply and demand.

Part of the price drops might also be the simple fact that every token decreases in play value over time, because new tokens with different abilities arrive to vie for its slot. Make enough powerful amulets and even Horn of Plenty owners will start to reconsider whether to wear it (assuming they do runs for the fun of the game more than token profit).

This is the standpoint I was coming from. The value of URs is going down not because there's a glut of them (I just don't see that) but because once-valuable URs have been replaced by more useful tokens. High-level token buyers don't want to buy a +1 Full Plate when they can get pieces of the Templar's Set or Plate Armor of Attack. However, a more casual player would probably be delighted to get that same +1 Full Plate in exchange for trade goods, gold or a potentially smaller payment in cash.

I see this as qualitatively a different situation than the previous and unavoidable glut of common and uncommon tokens.