TOPIC: Offhand Penalty for VTD too harsh especially at higher levels.

TLDR: Off-Hand Penalty for VTD should be capped at -5.

My monk build currently is geared for capping my hit chance in Mythic. Fully buffed I have 54 hit rating with my main hand and 41 hit with my offhand. In PTD, I would not be 13 points worse with my throwing ability.

I suggest that this be adjusted to either scale and cap at a -5 penalty or simply just be a flat -5 penalty (to simulate 25% of a D20).

Completely agreed.

This used to be ok as 25% penalty, but as the +hit numbers have scaled higher (and Mythic especially requiring more +hit), 25% penalty can work out to being a -14. That's too much.

I like capping it at -5.

I agree, it seems like monks and melee rangers are punished too harshly at Epic and Mythic levels of play. Diminishing returns on off-hand hit bonus, combined with a “harder” weighting of the d20 rolls on higher difficulties gives these classes consistency issues. I’ve given up on playing Monk in VTD because of this.

I think either reducing the penalty multiplier or a cap to the penalty would be great for these classes.

BasicBraining wrote: I agree, it seems like monks and melee rangers are punished too harshly at Epic and Mythic levels of play. Diminishing returns on off-hand hit bonus, combined with a “harder” weighting of the d20 rolls on higher difficulties gives these classes consistency issues. I’ve given up on playing Monk in VTD because of this.

I think either reducing the penalty multiplier or a cap to the penalty would be great for these classes.

For what it's worth, the weighted d20 rolls have hit Rogue very hard as well, to the point where I've similarly wondered if it's worth playing Rogue in VTD. I count myself lucky if I get even one crit per virtual run nowadays.

Is this truly a problem? Instead of saying Monk and Ranger are unfairly penalized, what if I suggested:

At higher difficulties Fighters and some single weapon classes gain ground in cross class comparisons on the damage scale.

Is that outcome a bad thing?

It does seem fairly punishing for Mythic play, from what it sounds like, maybe not as much at the other difficulties. It does seem somewhat counter intuitive, as if you are struggling to hit at Mythic, you need to increase your accuracy over things like damage, and therefore, you're punished even more for focusing on hit.

Endgame wrote: Is this truly a problem? Instead of saying Monk and Ranger are unfairly penalized, what if I suggested:

At higher difficulties Fighters and some single weapon classes gain ground in cross class comparisons on the damage scale.

Is that outcome a bad thing?

I know it’s a common perception that Monks and Rangers are OP and Fighters and Paladins fall behind, but VTD design and mythic have been making them more valuable. The number of rooms with multiple targets has been especially prevalent in the last two years, where Viv’s doubles the damage of fighters. In those rooms they get a second hit with no roll. A dwarf fighter with a natural 20 effectively hits 6 times. Incoming damage has increased as well, which may nor may not make your Paladin useful on Epic depending on the group, but they’re mandatory on Mythic.

tl;dr I would gladly take fighter or paladin over monk in epic or mythic play now.

Endgame wrote: Is this truly a problem? Instead of saying Monk and Ranger are unfairly penalized, what if I suggested:

At higher difficulties Fighters and some single weapon classes gain ground in cross class comparisons on the damage scale.

Is that outcome a bad thing?

Design decisions have made Benrow's Monk significantly worse in Mythic. As Basic said, I much rather play one of the fighters as a damage dealer at this point at least then my +hit stat would give me damage as well. Trying to be a Benrows Monk getting hit to a reasonable point while also doing any sort of damage is a losing effort. Don't forget the +hit penalty also applies to BUFFS as well.

Iross wrote:

BasicBraining wrote: I agree, it seems like monks and melee rangers are punished too harshly at Epic and Mythic levels of play. Diminishing returns on off-hand hit bonus, combined with a “harder” weighting of the d20 rolls on higher difficulties gives these classes consistency issues. I’ve given up on playing Monk in VTD because of this.

I think either reducing the penalty multiplier or a cap to the penalty would be great for these classes.

For what it's worth, the weighted d20 rolls have hit Rogue very hard as well, to the point where I've similarly wondered if it's worth playing Rogue in VTD. I count myself lucky if I get even one crit per virtual run nowadays.

This is anecdotal because I don't know what the weightings are, but I played Rogue in Mythic the last 2 VTDs and I don't believe I crit once. I should crit on 17 with sneak attack. Usually sliding 17+ on a physical combat board is not that difficult. Often the 19 and 20 are tiny but 17-18 are not that bad. But maybe I was just unlucky.

But, high level monks are awesome because they Stun on 19-20 ... oh ... hmmm ... maybe fixing this for VTD, something that is actually broken, might make playing monk feel less bad.

Ian Lee wrote: But, high level monks are awesome because they Stun on 19-20 ... oh ... hmmm ... maybe fixing this for VTD, something that is actually broken, might make playing monk feel less bad.

I don't even know if Mythic level monsters can be stunned but now that you mention it, I haven't crit at all in the last 2 VTDs on my Monk....

Speaking from experience, in general, mythic monsters can be stunned. However, on occasion, some of them may be immune to stun effects.

And of course, there is one mythic monster ability in which crits are treated like normal hits unless you have Judgment. The Shamblers had that ability in room 1.