TOPIC: Lending tokens

jedibcg wrote: I am still unsure of what the original poster was asking exactly.

I think it had something to do with your mom... right? I'm confused

Ignoring whatever the original poster was asking, as we are want to do, I will second the suggestion to avoid lending out too much to other players. For a newbie True Dungeon can be very overwhelming. If you want to help, make sure they have a weapon and play a healer to keep them alive.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Keep in mind, whenever anybody offers anyone unsolicited help, the helper is implicitly saying “you’re not good enough.”This applies to everything in life, not just TD. Some will graciously accept, and appreciate it. In my experience, it wins no converts. Quite the opposite. Others feel offended, and others feel even more over their heads. The more you try to “help” them, the more inadequate they feel.

You’re also telling people that they need to invest in a suitcase full of gear to have fun. That would chase away newbies, even if tix weren’t already $80.

And we veterans tend to make tokens more important than they are. Remember, Normal is designed so a group of newbies can swap around their 100 random tokens and survive to room 7. You shouldn’t have to lend anything to be successful, and kitting 9 newbies at epic level won’t prevent failure.

Some think they can drag a bunch of newbies through on HC or even NM if they just lend out enough gear. I beg you, don’t. It adds too much stress and reduces fun. Ruining a potential new fan’s first experience in exchange for a better completion token is at best well-meaning but counterproductive, and at worst cruel and self-centered. (Not directed at anyone on the thread, this is more for anyone lurking.)

Please, just keep it simple and low-pressure: HPs and TEs. Maybe Earcuffs of Retort for everyone (for E-series). Widseth’s for the Bard (because singing and fighting is fun). Thief tools. Haven Holy Symbol.

I’ve done it the other way. It never worked out the way I thought it would. I’m not proud of my mistakes, but I’m happy to discuss them if that helps keep someone else from repeating them.

Well said. +1 to this.

I've taken to sorting ny uncommons and having them ready to give to new players based on their class.

I realize this can confuse them, as some are situational. I try to help them remember during play.

If I had them, I would give out Ioun Stone Norse Opals to every single player.

Allen John wrote: I'm not exactly Mr. Suitcase, but I carry with me enough red tokens to be able to play any class in a pick-up group, so if I see new players who really don't have anything, I'll toss them one of my spare +1 weapons to use (cool weapon is cool) and possibly a rare armor if they're a fighting class (since everyone understands +5 AC and they can immediately forget about it once they hand me the token back). Other than that, no reason to get involved.

^^ This!
I'm only a level 3 player, so I can be pushed off a class that I have built for the run if someone higher is in the run. So I have one of each type of class build (plate. leather, cloth) with me so I can run. Most of it is reds and greens with some other exceptions. I usually run with my significant other, so its 3 build x 2 people, we're going to have extras.

Also our first time running TD someone did this for us, so we keep up the tradition. It wasn't anything pushy going omfg you need to be better. It was the let us help round out the character so your not stressing over not being able to do much. We didn't think anything bad of it and was greatly appreciative. It was more "Hey you don't have a shirt, or your missing a helm go ahead and use this."

When I say lend out sheets, I'm more so thinking. Ok I'm not playing my caster, or he's not playing a plate class - so anything on that 'sheet' that is not being used is up for grabs to be lent out.

Incendiaeternus (Phoenix) wrote: I'm only a level 3 player, so I can be pushed off a class that I have built for the run if someone higher is in the run. So I have one of each type of class build (plate. leather, cloth) with me so I can run. Most of it is reds and greens with some other exceptions. I usually run with my significant other, so its 3 build x 2 people, we're going to have extras.

Just want to clarify that being a higher level (than 3) doesn't give you higher priority to classes.

3rd 3,000–5,999 XP: You get first pick of character class before 1st and 2nd level players. (All 3rd level or higher players will roll off for order of choosing*.)

* If two or more 3rd-level or higher players can't amicably decide who gets to play a disputed class, roll a die. Whomever rolls highest may play that character class. Re-roll ties. If nobody in your group has a die, ask a TD volunteer if they can get one for you.

Note: Being a higher player level than 3rd does not bestow any bonus to this roll. E.g., if a 6th-level player and a 3rd-level player are rolling-off against each other, they both have an equal chance at getting the character they want.

Incendiaeternus (Phoenix) wrote:

Allen John wrote: I'm not exactly Mr. Suitcase, but I carry with me enough red tokens to be able to play any class in a pick-up group, so if I see new players who really don't have anything, I'll toss them one of my spare +1 weapons to use (cool weapon is cool) and possibly a rare armor if they're a fighting class (since everyone understands +5 AC and they can immediately forget about it once they hand me the token back). Other than that, no reason to get involved.

^^ This!
I'm only a level 3 player, so I can be pushed off a class that I have built for the run if someone higher is in the run. So I have one of each type of class build (plate. leather, cloth) with me so I can run. Most of it is reds and greens with some other exceptions. I usually run with my significant other, so its 3 build x 2 people, we're going to have extras.

Also our first time running TD someone did this for us, so we keep up the tradition. It wasn't anything pushy going omfg you need to be better. It was the let us help round out the character so your not stressing over not being able to do much. We didn't think anything bad of it and was greatly appreciative. It was more "Hey you don't have a shirt, or your missing a helm go ahead and use this."

When I say lend out sheets, I'm more so thinking. Ok I'm not playing my caster, or he's not playing a plate class - so anything on that 'sheet' that is not being used is up for grabs to be lent out.

From the Players Handbook:
If two or more 3rd-level or higher players can’t amicably decide who gets to play a disputed class, roll a die. Reroll ties. Whomever rolls highest may play that character class. If nobody in your group has a die, ask a TD volunteer if they can get one for you.
Note: Being a higher player level than 3rd does not bestow any bonus to this roll. E.g., if a 6th-level player and a 3rd-level player are rolling off against each other, they have an equal chance at getting the character they want.

Bob Chasan wrote:

Too slow...lol.

jedibcg wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Too slow...lol.

Doh!
That wasn't there when I started writing the post. Also I cited the source.

Brad Mortensen wrote: whenever anybody offers anyone unsolicited help, the helper is implicitly saying "you're not good enough."

I respectfully disagree with your premise. While that certainly CAN be the case, it isn't necessarily the case. Context, intent, and attitude matter.

Kirk Bauer wrote: For a newbie True Dungeon can be very overwhelming.

Absolutely! Many a time I've seen a vet insist a newbie use a stack of higher-powered tokens.

I'd suggest you (any vet, not specifically Kirk or Brad) politely ask the newbie if they want help. If the newbie accepts, offer a suggestion or two. Don't give orders. Often times a weapon token is all that's necessary, but use your better judgement. Read the person you're talking to. Are their eyes glazed over from information overload? If so, chill. If they look like they "get it", maybe offer a bard a non-default instrument, a rogue might like MW Thieves' Tools, a holy symbol for a cleric, etc.
But if the newbie would like to do it on their own, graciously respect their decision--sans eyeroll. Perhaps acknowledge their choice while at the same time letting them know it's okay if they change. Everyone has fun in their own way. Let folks set their own pace if they want to.

Side Note (Warning, incoming rant): I'm delighted that some vets have equipment they're willing to lend out. As long as all participants in the lending transaction are amenable with the loan, more power to you. However, please do this BEFORE the coach has started to record their stats. This also means you need to be on time. (read: arrive before your official start time!) It is absolutely infuriating when Santa waltzes into the coaching room 15 minutes late with a sack full of high-level toys to distribute. Do not do this to your coach. (I don't care if your stats are prerecorded, this is still highly disruptive*) Do not do this to your party because your party will be late going into training. YOU may know how to slide a 20 every time and have all the memorization tests down pat, but newbies aren't you. Don't deprive them of the opportunity to practice because you can't bear to run with people using "sub-optimal" equipment. If they have a +5 weapon but can't slide for crap because they never got the chance to practice, you're not doing anyone a favor.
Thank you for reading my rant.

*I'm not talking about folks who prearranged their own individual late arrival by getting their wristband ahead of time, has pregen'd stats, and well-organized tokens to present for verification.

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: whenever anybody offers anyone unsolicited help, the helper is implicitly saying "you're not good enough."

I respectfully disagree with your premise. While that certainly CAN be the case, it isn't necessarily the case. Context, intent, and attitude matter.

I will respectfully disagree with your disagreement, in this sense: if they were good enough, you wouldn’t be trying to load them up. Whether or not it is taken as constructive help or offensive disparagement is a function of all the factors you mention, as well as their perception. All the more reason to keep it low-pressure.

So I think it’s semantics, and we’re probably in high-90s% agreement .

We’re a big-hearted community who are passionate about promoting our hobby and sharing our love of TD with others, especially newbies. The majority of us have nothing but good intentions. Sometimes we just forget that less can be more.

I think my hang-up may be with the word "good". When I read "you're not good enough" I read that as "you, as a person" as opposed to "the equipment you are using". You could be perfectly charming and competent. And besides, no matter how exceedingly good a thing is, there is almost always room for improvement.

For example, let's say I've got a stack of Thor’s +5 Returning Hammer of Smiting and I see you're "only" () using a +3 Throwing Hammer of Smiting. I might say to you, "I have a Thor hammer I can led you, if you'd like to use it." I'm not offering because I think your equipment isn't good enough. I'm not offering you equipment because I think you as a person are not good enough. I'm offering it to you because I think you might enjoy it. Obviously, in a parallel universe where I think you and your crappy little +3 hammer are subpar, I might implicitly be saying "you, Brad Mortensen, are not good enough." Fortunately, we're not in that universe and I like you and your equipment. (And the horse you rode in on.)

TLDR: I agree that we're in near total agreement.

Druegar wrote:
TLDR: I agree that we're in near total agreement.

No no. I am pretty sure you are both at extreme odds with each other and expect 3 more pages of entertain...umm back and forth while you each clarify your position.

Just like the token idea threads!