TOPIC: Power Creep Discussion

Ro-gan wrote: I posted this a few days ago about my solution/help to Power Creep. I stand by it...

Ro-gan wrote: Avoiding power creep is always a good thing.

How about in the future Relic and Legendary Tokens be something like this...

Magic-Users: The Relic/Legendaries are familiars. Maybe the Relic just offers a special power like night vision or able to see invisible things/people or never surprised. The Legendary could be a familiar that has damage numbers and the Magic-User gets to slide as a second attack.

Every year or so the new Legendary is a new type of familiar. No power creep here because the Token is spotless and doesn't break the game... it just adds a coolness factor.

Paladin: A War Horse Relic/Legendary Token. The Relic version could just add a unique special ability like trample or never surprised or first strike (Paladin gets to always slide first in combat. The Legendary could be a War Horse that gets to attack and do damage.

Ranger: Same as above. Rangers usually always get an animal companion.

Fighter: Same as above but it's a squire-type Token.

Dwarf Fighter: Same as above. The Relic/Legendary Tokens are either a squire-type or animal companion.

Bard: Same as above. The Relic/Legendaries are an animal companion. Or a Bard Instrument that turns into a mechanical companion. Think Bubu from the original Clash Of The Titans movie.

Monk: Same as above. The Relic/Legendary are "padawans" or whatever low level trainee a Monk takes on to train.

Barabarian: Same as above (see the pattern developing - LOL!!). The Relic/Legendary are an animal companion like a wolf or bear.

Druid: Same as above. Animal companion - duh!

This way for the next few years power creep is avoided and there are some cool arse Tokens being crafted for specific classes their respective years. An attacking familiar/squire doesn't have to be uber-powerful and won't break combat. Same for the Relic version. Getting something minor-ish like free movement/never surprised/special vision/some type of minor immunity/whatever doesn't break the game and frees up a different Token slot that did grant that ability.

I definitely think this should be part of the solution.

Endgame - the only problem with not capping HC and NM is we already have NM runs that are cake walks as well as epic runs that are easy. A 10 point to hit or ac swing in a single difficulty tier is the difference between cake walk and tpk. We’re seeing 20+ point swings routinely. How can TD design for that? As is, HC and NM difficulty is based on expectations of power levels far lower than we’re actually seeing but those levels are reasonable to control the swings in power if certain to hit and damage expectations were correct. The problem continues because it cannot currently be corrected without the same statistical problem I highlighted in the original post.

Power creep is what killed pathfinder’s first organized play - they couldn’t get to where 6 people would be in a game together with remotely similar power levels. That’s why they introduced different rules for organized play (much like how TD is an organized play model) that narrowed the power bands possible. 5e is entirely based on controlling that power banding to make DMing reasonable to challenge players predictably.

Fred

Ro-gan wrote: I posted this a few days ago about my solution/help to Power Creep. I stand by it...

Ro-gan wrote: Avoiding power creep is always a good thing.

How about in the future Relic and Legendary Tokens be something like this...

Magic-Users: The Relic/Legendaries are familiars. Maybe the Relic just offers a special power like night vision or able to see invisible things/people or never surprised. The Legendary could be a familiar that has damage numbers and the Magic-User gets to slide as a second attack.

Every year or so the new Legendary is a new type of familiar. No power creep here because the Token is spotless and doesn't break the game... it just adds a coolness factor.

Paladin: A War Horse Relic/Legendary Token. The Relic version could just add a unique special ability like trample or never surprised or first strike (Paladin gets to always slide first in combat. The Legendary could be a War Horse that gets to attack and do damage.

Ranger: Same as above. Rangers usually always get an animal companion.

Fighter: Same as above but it's a squire-type Token.

Dwarf Fighter: Same as above. The Relic/Legendary Tokens are either a squire-type or animal companion.

Bard: Same as above. The Relic/Legendaries are an animal companion. Or a Bard Instrument that turns into a mechanical companion. Think Bubu from the original Clash Of The Titans movie.

Monk: Same as above. The Relic/Legendary are "padawans" or whatever low level trainee a Monk takes on to train.

Barabarian: Same as above (see the pattern developing - LOL!!). The Relic/Legendary are an animal companion like a wolf or bear.

Druid: Same as above. Animal companion - duh!

This way for the next few years power creep is avoided and there are some cool arse Tokens being crafted for specific classes their respective years. An attacking familiar/squire doesn't have to be uber-powerful and won't break combat. Same for the Relic version. Getting something minor-ish like free movement/never surprised/special vision/some type of minor immunity/whatever doesn't break the game and frees up a different Token slot that did grant that ability.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure how adding a new slot with the intent to free up other slots won't contribute to power creep.

In response to the last few, if we cap difficulties, what happens to the people who have paid for and want a cake walk. I am very against telling how they will have fun.

The only reason I support stat caps somewhere beyond the point people can reasonably achieve today is because that's how d&d managed it and it has the last impact in terms of constraints player agency.

Capping stats at say 40 does not ever realistically effect 90% of the player base. Capping normal at +10 stats will effect a lot of people in reds because central command has determined how much challenge is "fun" that doesn't seem right dispite the best of intentions.

Fred K wrote: [
Endgame - the only problem with not capping HC and NM is we already have NM runs that are cake walks as well as epic runs that are easy. A 10 point to hit or ac swing in a single difficulty tier is the difference between cake walk and tpk. We’re seeing 20+ point swings routinely. How can TD design for that? As is, HC and NM difficulty is based on expectations of power levels far lower than we’re actually seeing but those levels are reasonable to control the swings in power if certain to hit and damage expectations were correct. The problem continues because it cannot currently be corrected without the same statistical problem I highlighted in the original post.

Why I dislike the idea of flat caps:

The problem I see with straight caps is that you're impacting classes that are supposed to be better at something more than the classes that are supposed to be worse. And there are some classes that mostly just have their stats, like the Fighter. Let's say you cap HP, AC, melee to-hit, melee damage, ranged to-hit, ranged damage, and spell damage. Depending on how you set those caps, you've likely made it so that a decked-out Wizard can hit the caps and be as effective at melee and ranged as a Fighter, but still also get all their spells. Yes, we can fall into this situation currently, but putting the caps in place makes it more likely. Because, now you've capped the Wizards spell damage so they might as well use their remaining slots to buff their other stats. Meanwhile the Fighter is left staring at the slots he might as well leave open since they just push him further over the cap.

Maybe I'm wrong with the above concern. Maybe there is a key flaw to it. But I really don't think putting flat caps on stats is an answer. Maybe giving the different classes different caps could avoid this. But I definitely dislike the idea of flat caps.

Ya but then you get into the discussion of how to fairly balance those differences.

Picc wrote: Ya but then you get into the discussion of how to fairly balance those differences.

Right. And the added complexity of enforcement. Which is why I'd just prefer to see us make interesting tokens that aren't just more stat boosters.

Stat caps IMO are the only way to deliver a consistent play experience across different difficulties for players. Cap all levels but Epic I say. Without caps there will always be players (well intending or not) that ruin the runs for others because of the disparity of their builds. I think most accommodating players wind up capping themselves anyway when they know it's in the best interests of the run. But I think Fiddy is right, if caps are put in place the best way to do it would be to have different caps for different classes.

For those that don't favor caps if you were a brand new player walking into TD for the first time and the game had caps on the difficulties (except for the hardest one) do you think you would still enjoy the game and continue down the TD path of playing/Token purchases to where you are today?

Rob F wrote:
For those that don't favor caps if you were a brand new player walking into TD for the first time and the game had caps on the difficulties (except for the hardest one) do you think you would still enjoy the game and continue down the TD path of playing/Token purchases to where you are today?

In a word no, I would have played once, said meh cool escape room I guess and called it a day. For reference my first run was NM sealich in 2011 (because as a new player I didn't know what that meant and wouldnt have cared anyway). I ran with people who hugely out geared me and that inspired me my letting me see the awesome stuff they could do. If they had been capped so as to not make me feel bad about my admittedly negligible contribution I would have had no intensive to try harder since there was no way to progress anyway. But I get that my experience may just be a product of a different generation.

Oh, we should probably also talk about renaming normal to hardcore to make it more accessible, Nightmare then becomes the old epic, epic becomes Heroic, we might need to revisit this in a few years so we can make Nightmare more accessible too. Don't laugh this 100% happened in world of warcraft and its actively killing the games subscriber numbers.

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:
For those that don't favor caps if you were a brand new player walking into TD for the first time and the game had caps on the difficulties (except for the hardest one) do you think you would still enjoy the game and continue down the TD path of playing/Token purchases to where you are today?

In a word no, I would have played once, said meh cool escape room I guess and called it a day. For reference my first run was NM sealich in 2011 (because as a new player I didn't know what that meant and wouldnt have cared anyway). I ran with people who hugely out geared me and that inspired me my letting me see the awesome stuff they could do. If they had been capped so as to not make me feel bad about my admittedly negligible contribution I would have had no intensive to try harder since there was no way to progress anyway. But I get that my experience may just be a product of a different generation.

Oh, we should probably also talk about renaming normal to hardcore to make it more accessible, Nightmare then becomes the old epic, epic becomes Heroic, we might need to revisit this in a few years so we can make Nightmare more accessible too. Don't laugh this 100% happened in world of warcraft and its actively killing the games subscriber numbers.

I leave you this, and if it doesn't convince you normal needs a stat cap, its not worth the effort of more posting.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=607&id=248002#313950

On the downside, combat was completely non memorable on N2, but not directly tied to the adventure itself. I'm sure this kind of thing comes up all the time, but let me explain:

For this adventure, we swapped out 2 of our normal group for 2 friends who had never done True Dungeon before. We had 2 additional new players in the adventure that were not a part of our group (so 4 newbies total), 2 players not in our group with about half purple and few blues, and a mega kitted monk. The monk was running at lease 3 legendary items, at least 2 green items (green boots and ring), and I'm not sure what all other awesome stuff - couldn't see from where I was sitting.

The guys with all the gear wanted to run nightmare. The new people wanted to run normal - we ended up running normal, which was sub optimal. The first two combats were not memorable as the monsters were wiped in 1 round (I had to look them up to even remember the fights). The giants were slightly more of a challenge - the geared up monk killed one on his own in like 2 or 3 rounds of combat, and then finished off the second one. The giants killed 2 of the new players, but thankfully someone was able to rez them.

The group generally felt that we were just getting in the way of the 3 players with all the gear - the 3 of them could have handled the whole adventure. At the same time, we were pretty sure everyone else would have died at hardcore or higher level based on discussions in the hall about how hard hardcore was.

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:
For those that don't favor caps if you were a brand new player walking into TD for the first time and the game had caps on the difficulties (except for the hardest one) do you think you would still enjoy the game and continue down the TD path of playing/Token purchases to where you are today?

In a word no, I would have played once, said meh cool escape room I guess and called it a day. For reference my first run was NM sealich in 2011 (because as a new player I didn't know what that meant and wouldnt have cared anyway). I ran with people who hugely out geared me and that inspired me my letting me see the awesome stuff they could do. If they had been capped so as to not make me feel bad about my admittedly negligible contribution I would have had no intensive to try harder since there was no way to progress anyway. But I get that my experience may just be a product of a different generation.

Oh, we should probably also talk about renaming normal to hardcore to make it more accessible, Nightmare then becomes the old epic, epic becomes Heroic, we might need to revisit this in a few years so we can make Nightmare more accessible too. Don't laugh this 100% happened in world of warcraft and its actively killing the games subscriber numbers.

I leave you this, and if it doesn't convince you normal needs a stat cap, its not worth the effort of more posting.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=607&id=248002#313950

On the downside, combat was completely non memorable on N2, but not directly tied to the adventure itself. I'm sure this kind of thing comes up all the time, but let me explain:

For this adventure, we swapped out 2 of our normal group for 2 friends who had never done True Dungeon before. We had 2 additional new players in the adventure that were not a part of our group (so 4 newbies total), 2 players not in our group with about half purple and few blues, and a mega kitted monk. The monk was running at lease 3 legendary items, at least 2 green items (green boots and ring), and I'm not sure what all other awesome stuff - couldn't see from where I was sitting.

The guys with all the gear wanted to run nightmare. The new people wanted to run normal - we ended up running normal, which was sub optimal. The first two combats were not memorable as the monsters were wiped in 1 round (I had to look them up to even remember the fights). The giants were slightly more of a challenge - the geared up monk killed one on his own in like 2 or 3 rounds of combat, and then finished off the second one. The giants killed 2 of the new players, but thankfully someone was able to rez them.

The group generally felt that we were just getting in the way of the 3 players with all the gear - the 3 of them could have handled the whole adventure. At the same time, we were pretty sure everyone else would have died at hardcore or higher level based on discussions in the hall about how hard hardcore was.

Sorry the existence of bad actors does not convince me we need to apply what I consider to be draconian rules to literally everyone. I'm sorry for anyone who has had a bad run, and if stat limits are how you want to play going forward to address that. You do you, I wont tell you its wrong. All I ask is the same courtesy.

Picc wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:
For those that don't favor caps if you were a brand new player walking into TD for the first time and the game had caps on the difficulties (except for the hardest one) do you think you would still enjoy the game and continue down the TD path of playing/Token purchases to where you are today?

In a word no, I would have played once, said meh cool escape room I guess and called it a day. For reference my first run was NM sealich in 2011 (because as a new player I didn't know what that meant and wouldnt have cared anyway). I ran with people who hugely out geared me and that inspired me my letting me see the awesome stuff they could do. If they had been capped so as to not make me feel bad about my admittedly negligible contribution I would have had no intensive to try harder since there was no way to progress anyway. But I get that my experience may just be a product of a different generation.

Oh, we should probably also talk about renaming normal to hardcore to make it more accessible, Nightmare then becomes the old epic, epic becomes Heroic, we might need to revisit this in a few years so we can make Nightmare more accessible too. Don't laugh this 100% happened in world of warcraft and its actively killing the games subscriber numbers.

I leave you this, and if it doesn't convince you normal needs a stat cap, its not worth the effort of more posting.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=607&id=248002#313950

On the downside, combat was completely non memorable on N2, but not directly tied to the adventure itself. I'm sure this kind of thing comes up all the time, but let me explain:

For this adventure, we swapped out 2 of our normal group for 2 friends who had never done True Dungeon before. We had 2 additional new players in the adventure that were not a part of our group (so 4 newbies total), 2 players not in our group with about half purple and few blues, and a mega kitted monk. The monk was running at lease 3 legendary items, at least 2 green items (green boots and ring), and I'm not sure what all other awesome stuff - couldn't see from where I was sitting.

The guys with all the gear wanted to run nightmare. The new people wanted to run normal - we ended up running normal, which was sub optimal. The first two combats were not memorable as the monsters were wiped in 1 round (I had to look them up to even remember the fights). The giants were slightly more of a challenge - the geared up monk killed one on his own in like 2 or 3 rounds of combat, and then finished off the second one. The giants killed 2 of the new players, but thankfully someone was able to rez them.

The group generally felt that we were just getting in the way of the 3 players with all the gear - the 3 of them could have handled the whole adventure. At the same time, we were pretty sure everyone else would have died at hardcore or higher level based on discussions in the hall about how hard hardcore was.

Sorry the existence of bad actors does not convince me we need to apply what I consider to be draconian rules to literally everyone. I'm sorry for anyone who has had a bad run, and if stat limits are how you want to play going forward to address that. You do you, I wont tell you its wrong. All I ask is the same courtesy.

I keep wondering how many problems would go away if ticketing could be improved? Making it easier to buy out full runs, having some algorithm that matches up PUGs based on times that work for the players as well as their experience/gear/etc. (Experience meaning familiarity with TD, not actual XP)

I feel like some of those issues of PUGs with a wide discrepancy in gearing are less of an issue at cons where TD can let patrons/AG members buy runs slightly ahead of time and ensure they are running with other players of similar gear/experience. Then again, maybe we just don't hear less about the downsides at those conventions simply because there are fewer players at those conventions or they are simply less interested in posting on the forums.

Limiting stats on normal seems fine to me.
Perfect, actually, as any player can force normal. Limited stats would absolutely have to be different for each class, in order to keep their diversity. A stat limited Wizard, a stat limited rogue, and a stat limited fighter should not be able to have the same HO, AC, melee to hit, etc. Perhaps we could add "max at normal" to each stat during redesign?
We could still set the number high enough to make normal "easy" for some, but not so high as to one shot monsters. This would prove to me a very difficult task, so trying to do it for other difficulty levels does feel a bit crazy.

I so agree that the problem as it sits comes from a lack of interesting choices at most levels.