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TOPIC: Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 12 hours ago #1

I was contemplating how the 1d10 + 10 combat hit calculation effects melee classes under the benefit of an expanded crit range.

TL;DR - A monk with 1 legendary, 1 eldricth relic, and rares outdamages a Wizard with 3 legendaries, 4 Eldrtich relics, 1 relic, ~8 URs.

Analysis

A strong but by no means BiS Monk Build that has Legendary Bernow's Elder Drake Necklace, and Kilt of Dungeonbane (STR) and aside from that rares only can get to:

Melee: 13 hit, 21 damage

A BiS Wizard with 4 Eldritch pieces, 3 Legendaries, a Relic, and ~8 spell boosting URs has a spell damage bonus of 33 and Mad Evoker's Charm.

Here are a few sample rounds of combat for the Wizard:

1. MeC doubled Lightning Storm = 2*20+33 = 73
2. MeC doubled Lightning Storm from Crown of Expertise = 2*20+33 = 73
3. MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray = 2*18+33 = 69 (10% miss chance on 1d10+10 method vs AC-15)
4. MeC doubled Ray of Shock or Scorching Ray = 2*18+33 = 69 (10% miss chance on 1d10+10 method vs AC-15)
5. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
6. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55
7. MeC doubled Magic Missile with skill check = 2*11+33 = 55

Expected damage over 7 rounds = 435.2 (-10% damage from Ray spells for possible misses)

Every round the monk slides 2 pucks, and vs an AC of 25 each puck, and with +2/+4 Bardsong, Each puck has:

* A 10% chance of missing (roll of 1 on 1d10)
* A 20% chance of critting (roll of 9, 10 on 1d190)
* A 70% chance of hitting (13+3+10+roll of 2-8 all hit)

Each puck has an average damage of 21 (melee damage)+4 (Bardsong)+ 4.16 (weapon average) = 29.16

This gives an expected damage over 7 rounds:

7*2*.7*29.16 (hits) + 7*2*2*.2*29.16 (crits) = 449.1

(64.2 damage per round)

So, a Monk with an Eldritch Kilt and Benrow's supported by a L5 Bard with a +2 damage instrument outdamages a BiS wizard supported by healers to use MeC over 7 rounds. If the round count extends the difference would increase as the Wizard has already used her best spells.

A similar analysis would hold for a Ranger with 2 Legendary Thor's Hammers (actually, they would deal considerably more due to the 18-20 crit range).

Builds

(Note, some of the builds have non-combat tokens that aren't counted above, like Bead of the Lucky Traveler or Charm of Avarice)

Monk:

Class Monk

Level: 4
Health: 33
Melee
+ To Hit: 13
+ Damage: 21 +Shock +Darkrift +Sacred
AC: 18
Polymorph
+ To Hit: 0
+ Damage: +Shock +Darkrift +Sacred
Missile
+ To Hit: 5
+ Damage: 16 +Sacred
AC: 18
AC Bonus vs Ranged: +0
Saves
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 13
Will: 18
Retribution Damage: 0
Surprise: Immune
Free Movement: Free Movement
Psychic:
Spell Damage: 0
Healing Bonus: 0
Treasure: 20

Set Bonuses:

Mainhand: +1 Assassin's Blade
Offhand: Brawler's Horn

Totem Paint: -
Head: Crown of Iron Will
Head 2: - Requires Special Token
Eyes: Lenses of Heimdall Sight
Ear 1: Darkling Earcuff
Ear 2: Earcuff of the Bliss
Bead: Bead of the Lucky Traveler
Neck: Benrow’s Elder Drake Necklace
Back 1: +2 Cloak of Resistance
Back 2: - Requires Special Token
Shirt: Linked Shirt of Healing
Torso: Robe of Deftness
Wrists: Bracers of Lightning
Hands: Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Finger 1: Ring of Dark Health
Finger 2: Ring of the Hallowed
Finger 3: - Requires special token
Waist: Belt of Ogre Power
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane (Strength)
Shins: Flameguard Greaves
Feet: Boots of Shocking Step
Ioun Stone 1: Ioun Stone Agate Orb
Ioun Stone 2: Ioun Stone Beryl Prism
Ioun Stone 3: Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear
Ioun Stone 4: Ioun Stone Gold Nugget
Ioun Stone 5: Ioun Stone Silver Nugget
Ioun Stone 6: - Requires Special token
Ioun Stone 7: - Requires Special token
Ioun Stone 8: - Requires Special token
Ioun Stone 9: - Requires Special token
Special 1: Enchanter's Whetstone
Special 2: Horn of the Blessed Ox
Special 3: -
Special 4: -
Special 5: -
Special 6: -
Special 7: -
Special 8: -
Special 9: -
Special 10: -
Special 11: -
Special 12: -
Special 13: -
Special 14: -
Special 15: -
Runestone: -
Runestone Fitting 1: - Requires 1 Runestone Fitting Base
Runestone Fitting 2: - Requires 2 Runestone Fitting Bases
Charm 1: Charm of Avarice
Charm 2: Charm of Awakened Synergy
Charm 3: Fiendish Charm
Charm 4: - Requires Special token
Charm 5: - Requires Special token
Charm 6: - Requires Special token
Charm 7: - Requires Special token
Charm 8: - Requires Special token
Charm 9: - Requires Special token
Charm 10: - Requires Special token
Figurine 1: Figurine of Power: Salamander
Figurine 2: - Requires 16 Charisma or token

Wizard:

Class Wizard

Level: 5
Health: 62
Melee
+ To Hit: 6
+ Damage: 11 +Eldritch
AC: 20
Polymorph
+ To Hit: 6
+ Damage: 15 +Eldritch
Missile
+ To Hit: 11
+ Damage: 16 +Sonic +Eldritch
AC: 20
AC Bonus vs Ranged: +0
Saves
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 24
Will: 21
Retribution Damage: 3 +Eldritch
Surprise: Immune
Free Movement: Free Movement
Psychic: Imbued
Spell Damage: 33
Healing Bonus: 0
Treasure: 21

Set Bonuses: Elemental Eldritch 4-Piece

Mainhand: Drake's +5 Staff of Focus

Totem Paint: Totem Paint Crushed Ruby
Head: Crown of Expertise
Head 2: - Requires Special Token
Eyes: Lenses of Focus
Ear 1: Arcane Earcuff
Ear 2: Earcuff of Orbits
Bead: Bead of the Lucky Traveler
Neck: Medallion of Mystic Mouth
Back 1: Pharacus' Greater Cloak of Destiny
Back 2: Cloak of the Mage
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Torso: Aron's Sunhide Robe
Wrists: Charm Bracelets
Hands: Blessed Tempest Gloves
Finger 1: Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus
Finger 2: Ring of Greater Focus
Finger 3: Supreme Ring of Elemental Command
Waist: Arcane Belt
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane (Constitution)
Shins: Flameguard Greaves
Feet: Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone 1: Ioun Stone Silver Nugget
Ioun Stone 2: Ioun Stone Gold Nugget
Ioun Stone 3: Ioun Stone Topaz Trilliant
Ioun Stone 4: Ioun Stone Tanzanite Cube
Ioun Stone 5: Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Ioun Stone 6: Ioun Stone Fluorite Cube
Ioun Stone 7: Ioun Stone Sapphire Prism
Ioun Stone 8: - Requires Special token
Ioun Stone 9: - Requires Special token
Special 1: 6 Teeth of Cavadar (# equipped)
Special 2: 6th Player Level Bonus
Special 3: Ash's Death Pouch
Special 4: Druegar's Death Die
Special 5: Enchanter's Whetstone
Special 6: Kvothe's Bloodless
Special 7: Pouch of Tulz
Special 8: Rod of Seven Parts (Complete)
Special 9: Runestone Fitting Base
Special 10: Runestone Fitting Base
Special 11: Semi-Lich Skull
Special 12: Gregor's Tome of Focus
Special 13: -
Special 14: -
Special 15: -
Runestone: -
Runestone Fitting 1: - Requires 1 Runestone Fitting Base
Runestone Fitting 2: - Requires 2 Runestone Fitting Bases
Charm 1: Charm of Avarice
Charm 2: Charm of Awakened Synergy
Charm 3: Charm of Brooching
Charm 4: Mad Evoker's Charm
Charm 5: Charm of Glory
Charm 6: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm 7: Questor's Charm of Luck
Charm 8: - Requires Special token
Charm 9: - Requires Special token
Charm 10: - Requires Special token
Figurine 1: Figurine of Power: Salamander
Figurine 2: Figurine of Power: Imp
Set Bonus 1: Elemental Eldritch 4-Piece
Set Bonus 2:
Set Bonus 3:
Notes: 6 Teeth of Cavadar (# equipped)

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 10 hours ago #2

A few thoughts:

1. Agreed that in the 1d10+10 system, expanded crit range is more powerful than usual.
2. How about a BiS Wizard with Cabal set bonus casting 2x/round for 7 rounds? Would be curious to see that vs a BiS Monk.
3. Monk has their class legendary, but Wizard doesn't yet. They will undoubtedly also get a power spike from that.
4. There's more good rare tokens for melee damage than there are for spell damage.
5. Epic wasn't available for VTD. With higher monster ACs, Monk would need more gear to hit the monsters. Meanwhile, Wizard's damage is unaffected by switching to Epic.
6. I think your example also shows us that 25 AC is too low for monsters on Nightmare in this format. Monk has base +2 to hit, assume +3 from a bard, to-hit roll of 2 (the minimum that could hit), +10 to the roll, that's 17 already. You'd only need +8 to-hit from tokens to get to 25. Easily done with just rares.
Classes Played: Barbarian (21 times), Monk (16), Rogue (10), Cleric (9), Fighter (9), Ranger (8), Dwarf Fighter (7), Paladin (5), Druid (5), Elf Wizard (2), Wizard (2).

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 10 hours ago #3

Jeff321 wrote: A few thoughts:

1. Agreed that in the 1d10+10 system, expanded crit range is more powerful than usual.
2. How about a BiS Wizard with Cabal set bonus casting 2x/round for 7 rounds? Would be curious to see that vs a BiS Monk.
3. Monk has their class legendary, but Wizard doesn't yet. They will undoubtedly also get a power spike from that.
4. There's more good rare tokens for melee damage than there are for spell damage.
5. Epic wasn't available for VTD. With higher monster ACs, Monk would need more gear to hit the monsters. Meanwhile, Wizard's damage is unaffected by switching to Epic.
6. I think your example also shows us that 25 AC is too low for monsters on Nightmare in this format. Monk has base +2 to hit, assume +3 from a bard, to-hit roll of 2 (the minimum that could hit), +10 to the roll, that's 17 already. You'd only need +8 to-hit from tokens to get to 25. Easily done with just rares.


Cabal set bonus is 1/room - so it would help some but not 7 rounds worth. It would also rake away 2 damage from all spells by kicking Gloves of the Tempest out of the build (-3) and adding in bracelets (+1).

VTD Nymph and Niblewit spoilers:
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

But yes - you may be right that the real driver here is monster AC - unless the intent is that Nightmare monsters are nearly auto-hit with top end rare builds and a Level 5 bard (or prayer, Bless, etc.).

You've done a good job analyizing some of the reasons why this is happening. Frankly it blows my mind that a rare build with 1/2 legendary and 1/2 URs for Monk and Ranger have similar damage output to a BiS Wizard.

Likely the Wizard legendary will help some (but that's not a sure thing - ask Druids).

Can you imagine if the scenario were reversed? If the Wizard Legendary were so good that a Rare Wizard with it and say, a Greater Ring of Focus out damaged a BiS Monk?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 1 hour ago #4

Another thing to perhaps take into account is that without the bracers of brokenness, the monk won’t actually crit on much. That definitely came into play quite a bit during V1.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 1 hour ago #5

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can you imagine if the scenario were reversed? If the Wizard Legendary were so good that a Rare Wizard with it and say, a Greater Ring of Focus out damaged a BiS Monk?


Can you imagine if Fighters were even allowed in the same ballpark?

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 1 hour ago #6

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can you imagine if the scenario were reversed? If the Wizard Legendary were so good that a Rare Wizard with it and say, a Greater Ring of Focus out damaged a BiS Monk?


Can you imagine if Fighters were even allowed in the same ballpark?


Fighters should definitely deal more damage too (or monks and rangers less). Same goes for Barbarian.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 5 days 59 minutes ago #7

jpotter wrote: Another thing to perhaps take into account is that without the bracers of brokenness, the monk won’t actually crit on much. That definitely came into play quite a bit during V1.


Spoilers :).

Yes - it did.

But I imagine not every VTD will have a high occurrence of Crit immune monsters.

If the monk above never critted they would do ~80% of the above damage. Not bad for a build with 33% of the damage enhancing legendaries, 25% of the eldritch relics, and 0% of the relics and URs.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 4 days 23 hours ago #8

Matthew Hayward wrote: ... Each puck has an average damage of 21 (melee damage)+4 (Bardsong)+ 4.16 (weapon average) = 29.16 ...

... supported by a L5 Bard with a +2 damage instrument ...


I think you've got a small discrepancy in your case due to bard damage. </nitpick>

Oops

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Last edit: by Lequinian.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 4 days 22 hours ago #9

Lequinian wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: ... Each puck has an average damage of 21 (melee damage)+4 (Bardsong)+ 4.16 (weapon average) = 29.16 ...

... supported by a L5 Bard with a +2 damage instrument ...


I think you've got a small discrepancy in your case due to bard damage. </nitpick>


A level 5 bard with a +2 damage instrument gives +4 damage to the party (their unaided Bardsong is +2/+2).

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 4 days 16 hours ago #10

A few thoughts.

BiS for the wizard isn't necessarily best damage for the wizard. You could drop orbits for Earcuff of inspiration, SRoEC for Ring of the Drake, and trade questors for dracolitch (for the slide spells), for example. I'm sure additional damage could be found too with some tweaks.

Second, if the Monk is intended in being the highest damage dealing class, then this isn't specifically a problem when equipping the monk with his class legendary in a format that will enhance the crit range. For a much more realistic token to add to a mostly red monk, put in a Medallion of Valhalla in the neck slot.

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Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 4 days 14 hours ago #11

Endgame wrote: A few thoughts.

BiS for the wizard isn't necessarily best damage for the wizard. You could drop orbits for Earcuff of inspiration, SRoEC for Ring of the Drake, and trade questors for dracolitch (for the slide spells), for example. I'm sure additional damage could be found too with some tweaks.

Second, if the Monk is intended in being the highest damage dealing class, then this isn't specifically a problem when equipping the monk with his class legendary in a format that will enhance the crit range. For a much more realistic token to add to a mostly red monk, put in a Medallion of Valhalla in the neck slot.


Swapping the SRoEC for the Ring of the Drake results in +1 damage
Swapping the neck to Amulet of Shock results in +2 damage unless scrolls were added into that damage calculation
Swapping Earcuff of Orbits for Inspiration results in +4 damage
Swapping to Arcane Bracelets gives +14 total damage via a third ray of shock/scorching ray but adds another 10% chance of spell failure on slide but removed Questors charm of luck and cloak of the mage increasing vulnerability

Dracolich Claw Charm would add a grand total of 4 damage and is not viable as every other token to remove would overly hard the build. Would swap bracers over swapping to this charm as the total damage gained is +14 vs + 4

So this would increase the Wizards total damage output by
1+2+4=7*7=49
+
14*0.9=12.6

Grand total benefit of 61.6 damage over 7 rounds

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Last edit: by Arcanist Kolixela.

Red Monk with Benrow's and KoDB outdamages BiS Wizard in VTD 4 days 13 hours ago #12

435.2+61.6= 496.8 for the Wizard

449.1 for the Monk

Total damage bonus of Wizard over Monk

47.7 damage

4 Eldritch pieces, 3 Legendaries, a Relic vs 1 Legendary and 1 Eldritch

That seems RATHER low for a value difference of $7000 give or take

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