TOPIC: Treasure creep constructive ideas

I will just throw this out for thought. How about putting a treasure draw cap of 30 and any TE's that put you above 30 are worth 100 GP. ln other words if you had TE's in the future that brought you to 34 Treasure Draws. You would get 30 Treasure Draws and 400 GP. Everyone always needs more gold.

What makes you think this isn’t a pay to win game? The only difference between is that we have access to third party marketplaces. Want more treasure? Buy TEs. Want even more? Buy older TEs. Want to make sure you have max treasure every run? Buy 10 full sets of TEs. Want to jump in and play at Nightmare or Epic level? BiS can run over $10k easy.

Granted, gear won’t help you solve puzzles or slide better, but since we’re talking about treasure it’s plain that the guy with a full set of TEs that can pay to ghost five slots is going to win more treasure than the average Joe.

Whales offset the cost of this game. TD has said as much re: $8k purchases keeping the price point of runs where they are. Anyone can play and enjoy the game, even with a single pack of tokens at a con, but arguing that this game isn’t pay to win in regards to treasure pulls seems like rose colored glasses at best and disingenuous at worst.

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: What makes you think this isn’t a pay to win game? The only difference between is that we have access to third party marketplaces. Want more treasure? Buy TEs. Want even more? Buy older TEs. Want to make sure you have max treasure every run? Buy 10 full sets of TEs. Want to jump in and play at Nightmare or Epic level? BiS can run over $10k easy.

Granted, gear won’t help you solve puzzles or slide better, but since we’re talking about treasure it’s plain that the guy with a full set of TEs that can pay to ghost five slots is going to win more treasure than the average Joe.

Whales offset the cost of this game. TD has said as much re: $8k purchases keeping the price point of runs where they are. Anyone can play and enjoy the game, even with a single pack of tokens at a con, but arguing that this game isn’t pay to win in regards to treasure pulls seems like rose colored glasses at best and disingenuous at worst.

Treasure =/= winning

John Ohlinger wrote: I will just throw this out for thought. How about putting a treasure draw cap of 30 and any TE's that put you above 30 are worth 100 GP. ln other words if you had TE's in the future that brought you to 34 Treasure Draws. You would get 30 Treasure Draws and 400 GP. Everyone always needs more gold.

Oooo, interesting idea. I like it. and since there is still compensation for going over the cap, the cap could be set at 20. Seriously, we are already above where a cap is needed.

kurtreznor wrote:

Josh Wilhelmi wrote: What makes you think this isn’t a pay to win game? The only difference between is that we have access to third party marketplaces. Want more treasure? Buy TEs. Want even more? Buy older TEs. Want to make sure you have max treasure every run? Buy 10 full sets of TEs. Want to jump in and play at Nightmare or Epic level? BiS can run over $10k easy.

Granted, gear won’t help you solve puzzles or slide better, but since we’re talking about treasure it’s plain that the guy with a full set of TEs that can pay to ghost five slots is going to win more treasure than the average Joe.

Whales offset the cost of this game. TD has said as much re: $8k purchases keeping the price point of runs where they are. Anyone can play and enjoy the game, even with a single pack of tokens at a con, but arguing that this game isn’t pay to win in regards to treasure pulls seems like rose colored glasses at best and disingenuous at worst.

Treasure =/= winning

Could argue winning is being as uninvested as possible. But, anyway, I just went and looked up the pay to win definition and, actually, TD fits what I found really well.

Now, as a card flopper, I tend to think of PTW as something like "I own better cards, therefore I win more in tournaments" or think in terms of competitive endeavors where TD is only competitive in people's minds. But, then, lots of online games that seem to have some PTW concept (seem as I neither know nor actually care) are only competitive in people's minds.

I guess it depends upon people's expectations. If people view above Normal as a "winning" goal, then there is a strong PTW element. Still, more treasure is only somewhat related to better gear. It's a highly unreliable way to level up.

If people just want to go through a physical dungeon with a D&D like experience and don't care about builds or rewards, then not much PTW element. So ... my perspective is that the bulk of players aren't in a PTW situation but the bulk of players on the forums are in a PTW situation.

PTW. interesting concept. we choose our own difficulty.

ex:
i buy 10 tickets. i don't use any tokens except the TE. i pick non-lethal. i collect my treasure in epilogue. wowsers, i win.

buying/getting/trading for "better" tokens really only lets you play at a more difficult level.

as for a treasure cap... i don't believe it should include the artifacts or DoMT. i'm not sure how i feel about a treasure cap anyways.

*********** Unpopular opinion incoming *************
1) The COA should be the easies relic to make.
2) Treasure needs to be capped period.
The COA is not worth what it is selling for. There should always be a fairly easy path for new players to craft one. In my opinion before someone hits the 6th level bonus they should have the ability to have crafted a COA of their own. This would bring new players to the game, and would honestly drive them to either buy one quickly, or play enough to be able to make one. The biggest complaint I hear from new players is that they cannot compete, and they need so many things to be able to really play the game. By making the path to the COA the easiest relic to make, yes the value would drop significantly however there would be far more to sell for the market.

Treasure needs to be capped. The more the new players are left behind by the few treasure they get compared to the fully equipped get the more it drives them away from the game. The fully equipped are playing a number game the more I draw the more likely I get something good. A new player is going to get 3, and they could all be worth less than $5 combined. I know it does happen, but the likelihood of them pulling something of value is so low it's actually discouraging.

It's simple sales statistics new clients are how you continue to do business, and continue to grow. On average a company will lose 10-20% of it's clients per year. If you are not replacing those clients your market shrinks to non sustainability.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote: Reprinting AoTF is small potatoes to the nerf to x2 Eldritch healing and LoDS that hit after I acquired those. I get a reprint of AoTF is not a great outcome, but I think it is better than the alternative (ever inflating treasure enhancers and poor treasure boxes - and for the record I am one of those holding onto AoTF). But if AoTF is a bridge too far go ahead and reprint: Charm of Good Fortune, Ring of Riches, and Horn of Plenty.

The game is better when new players can be brought up to speed.

Horn of Plenty is also on the list of "never to reprint" list.

It was the impetus for the creation of the Charm of Avarice in the first place.

While I definitely agree that URTE reprints would be good for new players so would updating the CoA recipe to allow any URTE as 1 point towards the transmute (as was suggested and denied at the time of the token's initial design). Barring that change there needs to be a new way for newly joining players to catch up to the current players which is attainable, it's why tokens get reprinted in the first place.

That all being said it would be a VERY BAD precedent for Jeff to reprint the AoTF or CoA being as they are the only two tokens he's EVER stated will not be reprinted.

It's a munchkin move (but hey, I'm one of the Munchkin champions so I think of it as a compliment) - why not a "new" amulet - the "Amulet of Really Impressive Treasure Locating?" It gives the same treasure impact and some limited other element just to make it different (-1 to will saves due to greed, etc..) Technically, it isn't reprinting the AoTF. If Jeff didn't want to be blunt about it being a defacto reprint, it could be Gloves of Sparkly Treasures that grants +4 TE's - doesn't stack with CoA and can be substituted for the Amulet in the recipe.

At the same time, CoGF definitely deserves to be reprinted - synergy treasure was a great idea and new player should get access to it as well.

Fred

Phillip Evans wrote: *
It's simple sales statistics new clients are how you continue to do business, and continue to grow. On average a company will lose 10-20% of it's clients per year. If you are not replacing those clients your market shrinks to non sustainability.

Skipping the other bits on the moment, we would need more info on TD's revenue to tell what "should" or "should not" be done.

The holy grail for most game companies is monetizing gameplay. TD has this well covered with ticket entry fees, and given how quickly Gen Con sold out and how most VTD runs get sold, it doesn't look like there is any kind of concern with the player base dwindling. If TD can continue as is and be decently profitable via ticket sales nothing needs to be done from tokens. This is doubly true if >90% of players are running with their 10 packs they've saved over the years - they won't likely even see players drawing more than 3 - 6 treasure.

If Token sales are critical to maintaining TD, then the question is, what converts players to becoming purchasers of in print URs? Is it completing the dungeon successfully? Is it getting more player exp or better completion tokens (soon to be moot)? Or is it more treasure (which is a bad investment unless you're truly playing LOTS)?

From my experience only, treasure doesn't overly motivate most of my group. 1 player in my group wouldn't even equip a loaned CoA if doing so wouldn't impact treasure for the rest of the group. I don't expect most of them to buy or equip the 2023 TE bead. The larger concern in the group, by far, is slot creep and UR creep. For new players I've interacted with, seeing so many empty slots that you need to fill makes the game feel more like a money grab than TEs. For the more invested players, seeing recently printed URs getting hit with strictly better URs being printed shortly after existing options go OOP, or lower rarity tokens being printed with the same or better powers (ex: damage ioun stones, Belt of the Brave, etc) seems to be a larger concern than TEs.

smakdown wrote: PTW. interesting concept. we choose our own difficulty.

ex:
i buy 10 tickets. i don't use any tokens except the TE. i pick non-lethal. i collect my treasure in epilogue. wowsers, i win.

buying/getting/trading for "better" tokens really only lets you play at a more difficult level.

as for a treasure cap... i don't believe it should include the artifacts or DoMT. i'm not sure how i feel about a treasure cap anyways.

I like the pick your own difficulty angle on it. I realise I'm fairly new at True Dungeon compared to most people on the forum, but my interpretation of TE relative to PTW, TE feels like a premium membership on an MMO, say albion online for example. You can get to the same point theoretically either way, but with premium membership, the grind is reduced and you get there more effeliciently. Still need to put in the "work". For someone like me coming down from Canada, I can't make the time to hit multiple conventions to gather up much loot, etc (VTD is a godsend for us Canadian players minus not shipping loot up here...). A few extra treasure pulls just help cut down on the grind.

Endgame wrote: If Token sales are critical to maintaining TD, then the question is, what converts players to becoming purchasers of in print URs? Is it completing the dungeon successfully? Is it getting more player exp or better completion tokens (soon to be moot)? Or is it more treasure (which is a bad investment unless you're truly playing LOTS)?

I can only speak for myself, but before VTD, my motivator was trying to improve my damage. As a wizard with a weak build, it always seemed like my damage was pathetic compared to others (especially when I ran low on spells and had to resort to wands or scrolls), and I wanted to be able to contribute better to our success. Once VTD started, I got hooked big time, and my motivation changed, but as a casual player, that's what I was looking for.