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TOPIC: AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰

AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #1

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The party card no longer has a column called "AC BONUS if monster attacks with a missile". Any token that used to give that bonus has been updated to simply add that AC bonus to ranged AC. The following tokens are the only ones that are affected (I think):
Armor of the Mist
Bracelets of Blocking
Bracers of Deflection
Commander's Lorica Segmenta
Gloves of Repulsion
Lenses of Alert
Necklace of the Elm
Shield of Deflection
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections in this thread .
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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #2

Good change!

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #3

Sounds great! Appreciate the work on party cards.

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #4

First, thanks for the work in simplifying things. Less confusion is always better.

That said, I'm a bit confused by the change as I thought "Melee AC" and "Ranged AC" on the party card referred to the player's attack mode, not the monster's attack method.

By way of example:
Figma the Fighter uses a +1 Longsword and Defender shield to attack in melee. As a precaution, Figma also carries a +1 Longbow and an Archer's Buckler just in case they need to hit something at distance.

The Defender shield provides +3 AC when Figma uses the longsword, but the buckler only proivdes +1 AC when Figma uses the longbow. I thought that was what "Melee AC" and "Ranged AC" referred to in character stats. And "Missile AC" was a "bonus" added to either of those stats when a monster performed a ranged attack.

So, I guess the question is: how does this all now work when someone switches from a Melee weapon to a Ranged weapon and has a different offhand item that provides a different AC bonus?

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #5

Marc D wrote: First, thanks for the work in simplifying things. Less confusion is always better.

That said, I'm a bit confused by the change as I thought "Melee AC" and "Ranged AC" on the party card referred to the player's attack mode, not the monster's attack method.

By way of example:
Figma the Fighter uses a +1 Longsword and Defender shield to attack in melee. As a precaution, Figma also carries a +1 Longbow and an Archer's Buckler just in case they need to hit something at distance.

The Defender shield provides +3 AC when Figma uses the longsword, but the buckler only proivdes +1 AC when Figma uses the longbow. I thought that was what "Melee AC" and "Ranged AC" referred to in character stats. And "Missile AC" was a "bonus" added to either of those stats when a monster performed a ranged attack.

So, I guess the question is: how does this all now work when someone switches from a Melee weapon to a Ranged weapon and has a different offhand item that provides a different AC bonus?



I came to say much of this. It is a nerf of those tokens, but probably a needed one for simplicity sake not power.

It doesn't make sense to me, but I am fine with the change.
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Last edit: by jedibcg.

AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #6

I agree with making the change. As the number of tokens has grown, the more fine detail exceptions DMs have to handle the easier it is to make mistakes. Having melee ac and ranged ac as the only two real categories makes sense.

I recommend one additional change of wizard (and other class) slides from spells and scrolls to just use the ranged AC of the opponent. That would remove another level of complexity and also solve for something that didn't scale as the game expanded. Originally, an AC 15 wasn't automatic - now, even at builds with just 1 or 2 URs, it is an automatic. This slightly reduces spell slider power - maybe off-set it with a bonus to hit but not so much that it is "don't slide a 1" to hit unless the player really builds up ranged to hit. For normal 10 pack builds it would have only a minor impact. This would require a little balancing to get what that bonus is nailed down but would be worth it to remove another element of unnecessary complexity.

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #7

So, not surprised this is confusing, as having two different ACs is messy, but this change either makes tokens worthless or has zero effect on them as players are normally in one combat mode or another mode.

Meanwhile, speaking of confusing (and bad), sliding scrolls and sliding spells do not remotely work the same way. Sliding scrolls don't get ranged attack bonuses, which makes sliding scrolls awful in almost all cases. Have to be getting something besides damage to make the risk of missing worth choosing a scroll that likely does the same damage that can miss over a scroll that never misses.

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #8

Fred K wrote: I agree with making the change. As the number of tokens has grown, the more fine detail exceptions DMs have to handle the easier it is to make mistakes. Having melee ac and ranged ac as the only two real categories makes sense.

I recommend one additional change of wizard (and other class) slides from spells and scrolls to just use the ranged AC of the opponent. That would remove another level of complexity and also solve for something that didn't scale as the game expanded. Originally, an AC 15 wasn't automatic - now, even at builds with just 1 or 2 URs, it is an automatic. This slightly reduces spell slider power - maybe off-set it with a bonus to hit but not so much that it is "don't slide a 1" to hit unless the player really builds up ranged to hit. For normal 10 pack builds it would have only a minor impact. This would require a little balancing to get what that bonus is nailed down but would be worth it to remove another element of unnecessary complexity.

Fred


I'd be good with this change. The AC 15 thing for wizards never really made sense to me. It would mean I'd have to shift my wizard build around a good bit to boost my ranged to hit, but I'm ok with that so long as people take that into consideration when discussing token balance in future design rounds.

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #9

Monsters can have AC40 (or higher).

Are you sure you want wizzes to have to hit monster ACs with slide spells? Cuz, I would go back to never using a slide spell ever on NM/Epic, Swapping them all out, like I used to.

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #10

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Different ACs for slide spells could be interesting, but it's a massive change in class mechanics, not a minor tweak at all.

I have no clue how confusing slide spells are for DMs, most seem to calculate it really easily though.

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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #11

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I'm very much in favor of this change.
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AC Bonus for monster missile attacks ⚰ 2 months 3 weeks ago #12

Fred K wrote: I recommend one additional change of wizard (and other class) slides from spells and scrolls to just use the ranged AC of the opponent. That would remove another level of complexity and also solve for something that didn't scale as the game expanded. Originally, an AC 15 wasn't automatic - now, even at builds with just 1 or 2 URs, it is an automatic. This slightly reduces spell slider power - maybe off-set it with a bonus to hit but not so much that it is "don't slide a 1" to hit unless the player really builds up ranged to hit. For normal 10 pack builds it would have only a minor impact. This would require a little balancing to get what that bonus is nailed down but would be worth it to remove another element of unnecessary complexity.

Fred


In 3rd Ed., ray spells hit touch AC, which is typically substantially lower than an opponent's normal AC. In 5th Ed., ray spells use a totally different to-hit stat called "ranged spell attack." That could be a way to make INT/WIS/CHA matter more than they do now. Either way, there is a justification for having spell slides work differently from normal attacks. Making a change to sliding spells without also changing a bunch of other mechanics is a huge nerf.

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