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TOPIC: What works with bead of the cleaver?

What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #13

Kusig wrote:

Fred K wrote: Sorry but my Munchkin side has to jump in here.

A cleaver isn’t an axe per Webster.

Axe definition:
A cutting tool that consists of a heavy edged head fixed to a handle with the edge parallel to the handle and that is used especially for felling trees and chopping and splitting wood.

Cleaver definition:
A butcher's implement for cutting animal carcasses into joints or pieces

Axes must have a head edge parallel to the handle to qualify. Some, but not all cleavers, would qualify. If the blade curves at all, it wouldn’t be strictly parallel. Lixy, for example, makes a really nice cleaver where the point is almost a straight line from the start of the handle (ie both the handle and blade curve.)

Stepping outside of the technical definition, as an uncommon, it probably shouldn’t rival the power level of the Enchanter’s Whetstone. The Whetstone is +1/+1 but only for rare weapons. The cleaver applies to dozens of weapons already. As soon as we expand beyond “axe” - you can make a good argument for a Halberd type of axe or even a gladius or other short swords where the blade is large.

This seems pretty reasonable.


Gib Gub’s Handy Acorn is a Shuriken. How do we get that an Axe like weapon is not an axe but an acorn is a shuriken?


Gib-Gub's was designed as a running joke. Is he a druid? A monk? Deranged squirrel? Reading the text in Token-db, it is described as "Game mechanics-wise, think of this item as a shuriken that can be eaten. If there is an effect that affects shurikens, it affects this token." It doesn't actually call it a Shuriken - just Shuriken like.

Back to the bead, if the bead impacted the deathcleaver, it would be far too powerful for an uncommon. That one bit would make it more powerful than the Whetstone. As-is, there are definitely cases where it is BiS or close to BiS (possibly the only uncommon with that distinction.) When used with the Axe of the Dwarvish Kings, in the hands of a dw fighter, it yields an item with +3 to hit and an average damage wheel of 10.5. The relic deathcleaver is +3 to hit and an average damage wheel of 10.8 while being 2 handed. The only one handed melee weapon better than it in that case is Asher's at 10.5 and +5 to hit.

It still works on something like 30 items and is a great help for players just building up. It was a good argument to make to include the death-cleavers but I don't think people using those really need much of a damage or to-hit boost.

Fred
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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #14

Honestly, I’m much more interested in it working with hurled insults than I am with it working with the death cleaver.

What type of weapon is a hurled insult? If the name determines the weapon type, is the hurled insult an… insult? Does it deal sonic damage instead of slashing?

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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #15

Druegar wrote:

Endgame wrote: Does the bead affect the death cleaver (2H axe looking weapon)? The hurled insults (art is an axe)? Or does the bead do nothing?

Great question. The TDb description for Bead of the Cleaver now defines what's compatible with it. In your example, the bead does nothing.

I can see why folks may be disappointed by this ruling, but we need to have concrete definitions whenever possible to avoid ambiguity and butthurtedness because one DM's definition of what looks like an axe is different from another's.


so,... i will assume my war maul is not going to benefit from this bead. :(
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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #16

smakdown wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Endgame wrote: Does the bead affect the death cleaver (2H axe looking weapon)? The hurled insults (art is an axe)? Or does the bead do nothing?

Great question. The TDb description for Bead of the Cleaver now defines what's compatible with it. In your example, the bead does nothing.

I can see why folks may be disappointed by this ruling, but we need to have concrete definitions whenever possible to avoid ambiguity and butthurtedness because one DM's definition of what looks like an axe is different from another's.


so,... i will assume my war maul is not going to benefit from this bead. :(


Afraid not. I was expecting it to only apply to members of the Cleaver family. You know - Ward, June, Wally, and the Beav.
(Yes, no younger people will get that joke.)
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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #17

Kusig wrote: Seems like we're trying to limit things for limit sake and not for any other reason.

Incorrect. Here are four reasons:
  1. We're trying to make consistent rules without having to rely on interpretation.
  2. Asking a DM or coach to visually interpret the "axeness" of a token image will most assuredly yield varying results. This is especially true for DMs in the dim lighting of in-person events.
  3. It's much easier on the programmers to have a clear, concise definition.
  4. Arguing Debating with a coach/DM what is or isn't an axe is a waste of time. As I know you know, time is the most priceless commodity when playing TD.

Kusig wrote: Imagine having to explain to a new player who just got his first tokens that his axe like weapon isn't an axe and he can't use it with the uncommon bead he got.

Of all the things we have to explain to new players, this seems pretty far down on the priority list.
For those who may be longing to apply sound, real-world logic to this dilemma, I understand that desire. I long for that as well. In times like these, I find it helpful to remind myself of the immortal wisdom of David Sleaze: The Punk Magician, who says, "It's magic!"
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections in this thread .
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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #18

If you're cool with negative play experiences because "this seems pretty far down on the priority list.", so be it.

GibGub's Acorn requires people to go to TokenDB to have it be validated as a Shuriken. At least Bead of the Cleaver interactions are written on the party card and static requiring no DM interaction within the walls of the dungeon and at most it would be during coaching.

If you want to make consistent rules without having to rely on interpretation, either update TokenDB with the classification of weapon types or remove GibGub's Acorn being a Shuriken.

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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #19

I'd be all for Acorn not acting as a shuriken.

But, it's also not a standard pack token.

As for NPEs, well ... I guess I should get back to work or anything else.

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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #20

Incorrect. Here are four reasons:
We're trying to make consistent rules without having to rely on interpretation.
Asking a DM or coach to visually interpret the "axeness" of a token image will most assuredly yield varying results. This is especially true for DMs in the dim lighting of in-person events.
It's much easier on the programmers to have a clear, concise definition.
Arguing Debating with a coach/DM what is or isn't an axe is a waste of time. As I know you know, time is the most priceless commodity when playing TD.


Wouldn't including tokens with cleaver in the title (along with Axe) address all of these points? (1) It's consistent; (2) Doesn't require looking at the image; (3) Programmers will simply include tokens with cleaver in the title as well as axe; and (4) there won't (shouldn't) be debates with the DM since the definition is based on the title.

And before anyone points this out, I do believe it's true that there isn't a token with the word "cleaver" by itself in it (other than Bead of the Cleaver itself). But there are only three Deathcleavers (+2, +3, and Averon's +5). Doesn't seem like adding those causes issues, and I think when the word cleaver is thought of as a TD weapon, the Deathcleavers come to mind before axes.

That said, the Bead does specify Axe tokens, and if you are wielding an Averon's, not being able to use the Bead of the Cleaver isn't really going to make or break your build in 99%+ of the cases.

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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #21

Manimal wrote:

Incorrect. Here are four reasons:
We're trying to make consistent rules without having to rely on interpretation.
Asking a DM or coach to visually interpret the "axeness" of a token image will most assuredly yield varying results. This is especially true for DMs in the dim lighting of in-person events.
It's much easier on the programmers to have a clear, concise definition.
Arguing Debating with a coach/DM what is or isn't an axe is a waste of time. As I know you know, time is the most priceless commodity when playing TD.


Wouldn't including tokens with cleaver in the title (along with Axe) address all of these points? (1) It's consistent; (2) Doesn't require looking at the image; (3) Programmers will simply include tokens with cleaver in the title as well as axe; and (4) there won't (shouldn't) be debates with the DM since the definition is based on the title.

And before anyone points this out, I do believe it's true that there isn't a token with the word "cleaver" by itself in it (other than Bead of the Cleaver itself). But there are only three Deathcleavers (+2, +3, and Averon's +5). Doesn't seem like adding those causes issues, and I think when the word cleaver is thought of as a TD weapon, the Deathcleavers come to mind before axes.

That said, the Bead does specify Axe tokens, and if you are wielding an Averon's, not being able to use the Bead of the Cleaver isn't really going to make or break your build in 99%+ of the cases.

As I noted earlier, I'm actually less concerned about the deathcleaver than I am +1 Hurled Insults. Being a 2H weapon, the Deathcleaver is less likely to be equipped by a dwarf fighter than the Hurled Insults, and the bead is not as likely to be used on someone using a UR+ weapon.

During Token Design, the +1 Dwarven Hurled Insults were initially +1 Dwarven Throwing Axe, and the art is specifically an axe. Someone suggested during design that its much better to use clever names for RP reasons, so the token was moved from a +1 Dwarven Throwing Axe to a +1 Dwarven Hurled Insult while retaining the same art (which in turn means the hurled insults are throwing axes). In the end, it seems that using clever names does not work well with the existing rules, since some tokens (such as the bead of the cleaver) refer to token names and not a token classification.

Ideally, weapons would either get a classification (ex: weapon type: axe), or we stop using clever RP names in token design and go back to more broad names since other tokens require keywords in the names to function.

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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #22

The definition of what's compatible with Bead of the Cleaver has been slightly expanded.
Have you looked it up in the TDb ?
Please post TDb corrections in this thread .
If I write something in teal, it should not be taken seriously

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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #23

Druegar wrote: The definition of what's compatible with Bead of the Cleaver has been slightly expanded.


I like the change. This lays the groundwork for future "Leave it to Beaver" Cleaver family tokens :)
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What works with bead of the cleaver? 1 year 2 months ago #24

Druegar wrote: The definition of what's compatible with Bead of the Cleaver has been slightly expanded.


By the wording used, it does not add any addition tokens at this time to what is compatible since the tokens with cleaver in the title are all Deathcleaver right?

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