TOPIC: Thoughts on the New Tokens....

I'm with Gary.  The ultra rare proofs I can see where getting the set would be practically impossible, but a smakload isn't enough to get pretty close on the ultrarares?<br /><br />Kim

psst, Kim - $5000 spent will nab one of every UR (10 first run/proofs and 10 regular) - and $10000 spent will get you 20 of each the first run and regular...<br /><br />I bet SMAK burned big SMAK dollars again - but the thing is - there were not that many of each proof made into stickers...so SMAK did a very nice thing and let others have first picks first...<br /><br />I'm guessing - totally guessing...Jeff maybe had 200 gold chips and maybe 10 of each PURP to put on chips.  So you can see things like the HORN or +1 Plate could have been gone very early on.

Lori informed me that the "first-run" URs are exactly the same as the later ones.  Therefore, I was okay with receiving mine later in May since I don't need any URs now and let others who care to receive theirs first.  I hope something didn't change and now the first-runs are different...

i'm hoping they don't change, as well. i thought about getting one of each proof, but opted for spreading the wealth. as long as i can build sets with trades, i'll be happy.  =D

I like the fact that there are so many new and imaginative new tokens, it really keeps things interesting, especially for those with most of the old tokens.  I hope that next year (and subsequent years) there is a huge influx of retired tokens and new tokens to keep things fresh and give the BIG token buyers new stuff to get each year.  <br /><br />I also hope that the tokens can avoid "Power Creep", where each year they keep getting better and better - making past tokens obsolete and throwing the game out of balance.  I am worried that is the direction things are going.  For instance in 2005 the best many classes had was Chainmail or padded leather.  Then in 2006 they got Elven Chain - a BIG improvement, I thought it was TOO good for some of those classes actually.  This year they get Mithral Chain, which is even better and now only 2 AC points less than Full Plate.  The Druid now has armor that is better than Full Plate, which doesn't seem right.  I think you could argue that this set has some tokens already that have suffered from Power Creep and that throw the character classes out of balance.  <br /><br />In a few years will we have armor for a Rogue that is equivalent or even better than Full Plate?  Will we have shields that are +4 to Armor Class, or +3 or +4 swords?  How long before there is a Mace even better than Gearon's +2 Mace?  I hope that TD can figure out a way to keep new tokens interesting without continually increasing their power level.  It would be nice if, 5 years from now, the +2 Mace, +1 Plate, Dragonscale Shield, Mithral Mail, Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, etc. are still considered top items.  <br /><br />Mike

A Mace might do more damage or have a bigger plus...but it will never be better than Gearon's!!!<br /><br />***I'm not biased or anything!***  =D

<br />I like the fact that there are so many new and imaginative new tokens, it really keeps things interesting, especially for those with most of the old tokens.  I hope that next year (and subsequent years) there is a huge influx of retired tokens and new tokens to keep things fresh and give the BIG token buyers new stuff to get each year.  <br /><br />I also hope that the tokens can avoid "Power Creep", where each year they keep getting better and better - making past tokens obsolete and throwing the game out of balance.  I am worried that is the direction things are going.  For instance in 2005 the best many classes had was Chainmail or padded leather.  Then in 2006 they got Elven Chain - a BIG improvement, I thought it was TOO good for some of those classes actually.  This year they get Mithral Chain, which is even better and now only 2 AC points less than Full Plate.  The Druid now has armor that is better than Full Plate, which doesn't seem right.  I think you could argue that this set has some tokens already that have suffered from Power Creep and that throw the character classes out of balance.  <br /><br />In a few years will we have armor for a Rogue that is equivalent or even better than Full Plate?  Will we have shields that are +4 to Armor Class, or +3 or +4 swords?  How long before there is a Mace even better than Gearon's +2 Mace?  I hope that TD can figure out a way to keep new tokens interesting without continually increasing their power level.  It would be nice if, 5 years from now, the +2 Mace, +1 Plate, Dragonscale Shield, Mithral Mail, Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, etc. are still considered top items.  <br /><br />Mike<br />

<br /><br />Hey Mike, I am with you on this one and with each set we actually try to slow the "power creep".  Moving the Elixir to UR and removing the Wand of Cure Light Wounds are two examples of this.  And steering away from over powered tokens like the Boots of Speed... er... nevermind.  I do think however that there will and always should be a "power creep" to avoid getting stale as people will want to upgrade in the coming years but it should be slow.  For example, two years from now, you might see a +2 Mace of Iron Will (+1 Will saves) just for Ultraczar.  :cool:  CCGs like Magic do this well.<br /><br />Actually, my concern is more for the power spread between groups where the presence or abscence of one token can make a group significantly stronger/weaker.  A large power spread makes it much harder to design dungeons. 

But isn't part of that why Jeff is really turning up the difficulty on Hardcore mode?<br />To challenge those who max out. While people may want the best, part of the draw is also the difficulty. That is one thing about the puzzle aspect, half plate, and shiny weapons are no good against that.<br /><br />But then I know nothing and should probably keep quiet. *flits off back to work*

I think Hardcore vs regular was one of the BEST game mechanic modifications options added ever.<br /><br />Good point Sis!<br /><br />EDIT - I have game mechanics on the brain as I am working on a COOL game idea for Treasure tokens...!!!

Hi Douglas,<br /><br />Thanks for the reply, I'm glad we're on the same page.  I also use Magic as a reference - and they for the most part have avoided power creep.  They have made some adjustments for balance, like making creatures more powerful and weaking areas like counterspells and direct damage, but they avoid power creep.  For instance, lightning bolt is three damage for one red mana - it has been discontinued and I don't think they are ever going to make a direct damage spell that powerful again, much less more powerful.  If you look at the powerful cards from the early game, like the Power 9, lightning bolt, dark ritual, hymn to Tourach, etc. - they have not approached that power level ever again and don't plan to.  I've read lots of articles on their website and they do their best to avoid power creep.  <br /><br />The big advantage games like Magic have over True Dungeon is that their main tournament is Standard, where cards rotate out every few years.  So - they can introduce a card which is inferior to the Black Lotus, but since the Black Lotus is no longer legal in Standard that inferior card will still be in high demand, because it's better than anything else legal in standard at that point.  And if they accidentally make a card that is overpowered, they can either ban it from tournament play or wait for it to rotate out in a few years.  <br /><br />I wonder if there could be something like that for True Dungeon.  Maybe you could tailor the Dungeon for two modes.  One could be "Vintage" (maybe replacing the Hard Core run) and every token ever made would be legal in that dungeon.  The monsters would be MUCH tougher, the traps would do more damage (maybe not that much more, since few tokens help against traps), etc.  The other could be "Standard", and the only tokens usable in a Standard run would be tokens from that year (or maybe from that year and the previous year).  The DM in each room could have two ways to run the room based on whether the group was standard or vintage - maybe give them different color party cards or something to make it easy to distinguish.  You could give separate rewards for each - in some way you'd want to incentivize people to do Standard while still allowing Vintage if desired (maybe making Vintage REALLY tough - a real accomplishment to survive).  That would assure a constant flow of token sales, as people would want to use the current tokens to play Standard - and you could add in a few tokens in each set for the "Vintage" crowd - something powerful enough that they would want them - maybe primarily disposables?  What do you think?  I've got some ideas on how something like that could be implemented.  The primary market would be the Standard market.  That might really make the dungeon fun also - as each year you'd have a different group of tokens that were legal so the game would be constantly changing.  You could allow a set number of older tokens in Standard (maybe 2?)  so that even the older player could keep using a couple of their favorite powerful tokens (they'd have to pick the two though)- that shouldn't throw things off too much.  <br /><br />One thing Magic does is give each color a specialty and try to make that color most powerful in that area.  Like, blue has control and counterspells, red has direct damage, etc.  Maybe True Dungeon could do that - Tanks would be best at AC and Damage, spellcasters at spells, rogues at traps & sneakiness, etc.  Maybe tokens could focus on that?  Give Tanks the best AC and damage, give spellcasters aids to spells, etc.  I know that's tough since so much of the game is focused on combat.  <br /><br />I agree with your last comment, but it is a curious one based on the tokens in this new set.  I'd think that if you wanted to keep the power level of the various groups going through TD fairly constant, that you'd make the more rare tokens only marginally better than the more common tokens.  But - some of the Ultra-Rares are MUCH more powerful than their Uncommon or Rare counterparts (like the boost Druids get with Dragonscale Armor or Wizards get with the Mage's Cloak).  The weapons are significantly more powerful also - a Holy Great Sword is much more powerful than regular Great Sword, the Flaming Shortbow seems to be a huge improvement, especially for classes that could only use a Shortbow.  There really isn't any comparison between groups outfitted with PURPs and groups that only have Rares and Uncommons - any dungeon that is scaled so that a group that only has their beginning pack of tokens has a chance of survival is no challenge at all for a group that is decked out in PURPs, they are practically invulnerable.  And as much as I appreciate Jeff's offer to let us pick our own PURPs, that makes the problem even greater, because now people can really pick the PURPs that will make whatever character class they choose to play ultrapowerful, if it was random it would be much harder to build up a supercharacter.  <br /><br />I appreciate the dialogue!  My main concern is that all tokens will be good forever, so once something is printed there is no putting the cat back in the bag.  I'm also concerned that the goodwill of some players might be damaged if they spend tons of money to get that top of the line token, only to realize a year or two later that it has been eclipsed by other tokens.  <br /><br />On the other hand, I also understand True Dungeon's position - and if you don't keep making tokens more powerful and introducing constant power creep token sales could plummet.  If someone wants to play a fighter, and they already have +1 Plate, Dragonscale shield, Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, Gearon's +2 Mace, etc. - they might see no need to buy any further tokens if more powerful tokens weren't introduced each year - as there are only so many slots a character has for items, and if they have the most powerful item in each slot there's no need to buy more tokens other than just to collect (which will still be a huge draw for many).  If you did something like the "standard" TD run though, that could help assure a constant flow of token sales each year without excessive power creep.  <br /><br /><br />Mike<br /><br />

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<br />I like the fact that there are so many new and imaginative new tokens, it really keeps things interesting, especially for those with most of the old tokens.  I hope that next year (and subsequent years) there is a huge influx of retired tokens and new tokens to keep things fresh and give the BIG token buyers new stuff to get each year.  <br /><br />I also hope that the tokens can avoid "Power Creep", where each year they keep getting better and better - making past tokens obsolete and throwing the game out of balance.  I am worried that is the direction things are going.  For instance in 2005 the best many classes had was Chainmail or padded leather.  Then in 2006 they got Elven Chain - a BIG improvement, I thought it was TOO good for some of those classes actually.  This year they get Mithral Chain, which is even better and now only 2 AC points less than Full Plate.  The Druid now has armor that is better than Full Plate, which doesn't seem right.  I think you could argue that this set has some tokens already that have suffered from Power Creep and that throw the character classes out of balance.  <br /><br />In a few years will we have armor for a Rogue that is equivalent or even better than Full Plate?  Will we have shields that are +4 to Armor Class, or +3 or +4 swords?  How long before there is a Mace even better than Gearon's +2 Mace?  I hope that TD can figure out a way to keep new tokens interesting without continually increasing their power level.  It would be nice if, 5 years from now, the +2 Mace, +1 Plate, Dragonscale Shield, Mithral Mail, Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, etc. are still considered top items.  <br /><br />Mike<br />

<br /><br />Hey Mike, I am with you on this one and with each set we actually try to slow the "power creep".  Moving the Elixir to UR and removing the Wand of Cure Light Wounds are two examples of this.  And steering away from over powered tokens like the Boots of Speed... er... nevermind.  I do think however that there will and always should be a "power creep" to avoid getting stale as people will want to upgrade in the coming years but it should be slow.  For example, two years from now, you might see a +2 Mace of Iron Will (+1 Will saves) just for Ultraczar.   :cool:  CCGs like Magic do this well.<br /><br />Actually, my concern is more for the power spread between groups where the presence or abscence of one token can make a group significantly stronger/weaker.  A large power spread makes it much harder to design dungeons.  <br />

<br />But isn't part of that why Jeff is really turning up the difficulty on Hardcore mode?<br />To challenge those who max out. While people may want the best, part of the draw is also the difficulty. That is one thing about the puzzle aspect, half plate, and shiny weapons are no good against that.<br /><br />But then I know nothing and should probably keep quiet. *flits off back to work*<br />

<br /><br />Joyus,<br /><br />You are right partially.  Hardcore is to challenge experienced players that have a lot of tokens, yes, but there is even a spread currently among Harcore players.  There is a huge difference between the Red Monster groups (lets call them RMGs for short) and the Purple Monster groups (PMGs).  If True Dungeon starts creating extremely powerful Ultra Rares, this spread will widen and then you are stuck with "How difficult should Hardcore be?"  If you aim for the RMGs, then the PMGs will find it to easy.  If you aim in the middle then as the gap widens, the RMGs will find the dungeons getting more difficult each year.  <br /><br />You are also right that puzzles are more of an equalizer but there is also a spread in the amount of healing between RMGs and PMGs to help recover from traps.  PGMs tend to have better saves and the ability to bounce back from a bad trap room.<br /><br />Anyway, those are my thoughts.  =^)<br /><br /><br /><br />

Thanks for expounding on that to answer my question.<br />Like I said admittedly I know nothing.<br />I am unfamiliar with Magic, and have Very, VERY little personal experience in how tokens affect the game. I'm a tavern dweller and know I'm not much help when it comes to token to talk. <br />