TOPIC: PURP Trade Offer

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<br />We've done the math before, quite a few times, and damage is almost always better than AC. The caveat to that is if you have a group that works together. You even end up taking less damage when you go for dealing more damage than for higher AC. I guess some people will stick to the perception that AC is best, but it just dosen't pan out in the end.<br />

<br /><br />Well, I'd say you're in the minority as to preferring damage over AC, despite what the math shows (and the "group working together" caveat is by no means assured), since it's clear to see that one-handed weapons and Dragonscale Shield are valued much higher than 2-handed weapons.  The +2 Holy Greatsword is bucking that trend somewhat, but I suspect it will still end up lower valued than the +2 Longsword or +2 Gearon's Heavy Mace, or the Dragonscale Shield.  It has the "new item" glitter on it now, but I think that will fade.  <br />

<br /><br />The DS shield is valued because it's _discontinued_. If it was included in this lot of purples, it wouldn't be at the top of my list by a longshot, well, unless I was a cleric. It's not even a question for the druid what would be at the top. As for fighters, it would clearly be the full plate +1. Paladin choice would be full plate +1 or holy great sword +2. You might be able to make the arguement for barbarians, but that boils down to the ac vs damage arguement I stated above.<br />

<br /><br />I don't think that's an accurate statement, because the Dragonscale Shield was valued very highly last year when it was still in print.  I won't deny the value has gone up after becoming discontinued, but it has always been highly prized.  I seem to remember more people looking for the Dragonscale Shield last year than any of the other tokens (other than perhaps Gearon's +2 Mace).  And once again - not everyone looks at the damage vs. AC mathematically like you and Henwy do.  I think the majority of people want to max out their AC, and you cannot do that without having the Dragonscale Shield.  Be careful not to take your preferences and assume that those are the preferences of everyone else.  And clearly they are not, or the +2 Great Axe and +2 Great Sword would be valued more highly than the +2 Longsword - and they are not even close.

This very thread is a perfect example - I'm offering a +2 Great Axe plus about 1200 GP worth of top Reds for, among other things, a +2 Longsword.  If people really valued two-handed weapons higher than 1-handed weapons, I should have Fighters and Barbarians breaking down my door for this trade.  The fact that there are no offers yet is pretty good evidence that people prefer 1-handed weapons and a shield to a 2-handed weapon - and the Dragonscale Shield is the best by far Shield printed. 

<br />This very thread is a perfect example - I'm offering a +2 Great Axe plus about 1200 GP worth of top Reds for, among other things, a +2 Longsword.  If people really valued two-handed weapons higher than 1-handed weapons, I should have Fighters and Barbarians breaking down my door for this trade.  The fact that there are no offers yet is pretty good evidence that people prefer 1-handed weapons and a shield to a 2-handed weapon - and the Dragonscale Shield is the best by far Shield printed.  <br />

<br /><br />Mike, no one is saying people prefer or even value 2-handed over 1-handed.  What I (and I think Henwy) are saying is that using a 2-Handed weapon is a better choice for combat than a 1-Handed and Shield for the Fighter classes.  But people are self-preservationalists which is one reason why the +2 Longsword is worth more than the +2 Greatsword.  The other reason is that it is the best Weapon for the Bard and Ranger (aside from the Keen Scimitar).

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<br />This very thread is a perfect example - I'm offering a +2 Great Axe plus about 1200 GP worth of top Reds for, among other things, a +2 Longsword.  If people really valued two-handed weapons higher than 1-handed weapons, I should have Fighters and Barbarians breaking down my door for this trade.  The fact that there are no offers yet is pretty good evidence that people prefer 1-handed weapons and a shield to a 2-handed weapon - and the Dragonscale Shield is the best by far Shield printed.  <br />

<br /><br />Mike, no one is saying people prefer or even value 2-handed over 1-handed.  What I (and I think Henwy) are saying is that using a 2-Handed weapon is a better choice for combat than a 1-Handed and Shield for the Fighter classes.  But people are self-preservationalists which is one reason why the +2 Longsword is worth more than the +2 Greatsword.  The other reason is that it is the best Weapon for the Bard and Ranger (aside from the Keen Scimitar).<br />

<br /><br />Bingo. That's why the longsword is worth more. It's far, far more versatile, being the best or near best weapon for like half a dozen classes. The greatsword/axe on the otherhand only qualifies for half that at best.

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<br />This very thread is a perfect example - I'm offering a +2 Great Axe plus about 1200 GP worth of top Reds for, among other things, a +2 Longsword.  If people really valued two-handed weapons higher than 1-handed weapons, I should have Fighters and Barbarians breaking down my door for this trade.  The fact that there are no offers yet is pretty good evidence that people prefer 1-handed weapons and a shield to a 2-handed weapon - and the Dragonscale Shield is the best by far Shield printed.  <br />

<br /><br />Mike, no one is saying people prefer or even value 2-handed over 1-handed.  What I (and I think Henwy) are saying is that using a 2-Handed weapon is a better choice for combat than a 1-Handed and Shield for the Fighter classes.  But people are self-preservationalists which is one reason why the +2 Longsword is worth more than the +2 Greatsword.  The other reason is that it is the best Weapon for the Bard and Ranger (aside from the Keen Scimitar).<br />

<br /><br />Bingo. That's why the longsword is worth more. It's far, far more versatile, being the best or near best weapon for like half a dozen classes. The greatsword/axe on the otherhand only qualifies for half that at best.<br />

<br /><br />Another reason for the difference in value... there are two options for the 2-Handers Axe and Sword hence twice as many tokens out there. 

<br />This very thread is a perfect example - I'm offering a +2 Great Axe plus about 1200 GP worth of top Reds for, among other things, a +2 Longsword.  If people really valued two-handed weapons higher than 1-handed weapons, I should have Fighters and Barbarians breaking down my door for this trade.  The fact that there are no offers yet is pretty good evidence that people prefer 1-handed weapons and a shield to a 2-handed weapon - and the Dragonscale Shield is the best by far Shield printed.  <br />

<br /><br />Sorry, that wouldn't hold water either. As far as trading for top purps goes, reds are near worthless unless you've got a stack of 20+ put together and even then, likely the only people you could trade it to are newbies. In effect, the offer you've got going is a greataxe +2 vs a longsword +2. Besides the versatility of the latter, it's also far more rare in number because of the existance of the greatsword +2 in both previous years.

Doug just beat me a bit to the same point there.<br /><br />Sidenote on the discontinued issue. Everyone remember what the hand of the mage went for and how frakking ridiculous it was? Okay, maybe some of you didn't think it was ridiculous but I about swallowed my tongue. The HotM is practically worthless in the grand scheme of things. It takes a very valuable slot and grants you, at best, an equivalent slot but really it's a lesser one. I can't think of many people voluntarily choosing to use it at all unless they were devoid of a LOT of better options. Yet, even with that, the bidding went to astronomical levels and all of that is driven by the fact it's discontinued. If it had been present again this year, I don't think it's too much to say that the value would have been half at best.

Don't forget one of the key value driver factors is set building...if it is needed by set builders - then price/value of the item is going to rocket much more than just if an item was usable for a cool reason or not.

I dunno that there are many set builders out there, at least on a per year basis. Most people can't afford it. It's sorta insane anyway. How many people have a full set of purples anyway, much less trying to get EACH year's full set of purples?

Well you can't ignore when a set-builder drops bank on one - and that has to have an impact on the value.

Just thought of another reason. The very existance of the +2 holy greatsword also devalues the other 2-handed weapons since it's effectively just a +2 greatsword with occasional extra-umph in the hands of a paladin. That pretty much means there's always been a 2 to 1 difference in numbers through all the years they've been avaliable in addition to the versitility issue.

<br />Just thought of another reason. The very existance of the +2 holy greatsword also devalues the other 2-handed weapons since it's effectively just a +2 greatsword with occasional extra-umph in the hands of a paladin. That pretty much means there's always been a 2 to 1 difference in numbers through all the years they've been avaliable in addition to the versitility issue.<br />

<br /><br />I still don't buy it, the evidence doesn't support the reasons you're giving.  In 2006, prior to the existence of the +2 Holy Greatsword, there were two 1-handed weapons available (+2 Longsword and +2 Gearon's Heavy Mace) and two 2-handed weapons (+2 Great Axe and +2 Great Sword).  The quantities of the 1-handed weapons and 2-handed weapons were roughly equivalent, since the 2005 PURPs were much scarcer than 2006 since in 2005 they could only be found in dungeons, while in 2006 they were also in "00" bags.  The two 2-handed weapons were valued at only 1200 GP each, while the +2 Longsword was valued at 2000 GP and the +2 Gearon's Heavy Mace was valued at 2500 GP (more than double).  Even if the 1-handed weapons could be used by more classes, if the 2-handed weapons really are superior in the hands of Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians, the 2-handed weapons would have been in great demand by those three classes and the prices would have been more equal.  <br /><br />Since there is such an inequity in price even during a year when there are two of each (1-handed & 2-handed) available, it is clear that even for the classes that could use a 2-handed weapon, the overwhelming preference of players was to use a 1-handed weapon and shield.  And that explains why the Dragonscale Shield was worth 3600 GP (well over any other PURP in the set), as it was unquestionably the best shield for anyone that could use shields, and gave extra AC to anyone using one plus a point of fire resistance. <br /><br />One of the other arguments you were using for the superiority of 2-handed weapons is that you can defeat the monster and have time left over for treasure or searching the room.  I feel that if you have everyone outfitted with the top 1-handed weapons, you will be able to defeat the monster in time to do all of that as well.  <br /><br />Another point you made was that it made sense to use 2-handed weapons if everyone in the party was doing so.  That is probably not something most parties can assure.  Many times you are going on a TD run with some players you don't know, so you can't know what weapons they will use.  Even if you do know everyone, it is likely that one or more people will feel strongly that they want to maximize AC instead of damage.  Just like the Prisoners Dilemna - if you use a 2-handed weapon but nobody else does, everyone else benefits by reducing the chance they'll personally get hit and they also benefit by you doing more damage to the monster at no risk to themselves.  <br /><br />It may make mathematical sense for an entire party to use 2-handed weapons, but I think most parties won't be doing that.  And, you two might be the only two that have actually looked at it mathematically, most others are doing the intuitively logical (and emotionally satisfying) approach of maximizing their AC to minimize the chance that they will be hit by a monster during combat.  The token values (1-handed weapons and Dragonscale Shield being so much higher than 2-handed weapons) prove that out.  <br />