TOPIC: No definitive BIS token

kurtreznor wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I have the same concerns and would also like to see more variety in builds. I have had discussions with Jeff about some future possibilities that might help out in this area, but I have no idea if/when any of them might happen. But it is something that is worth bringing up during future token development (that will be happening pretty soon on the forums I'm sure for 2019).

From my perspective, it isn't ideal to have any one token be the only good choice for a given slot on a given class. And especially not for a bunch of classes. I would love to see each class have at least two solid build choices, or ultimately 24 pretty different but very solid builds.

You get more of this in some classes than others. There are serious ranged Ranger builds and serious Melee Ranger builds. There are polymorph-focused Druids. I have seen Melee-focused Wizards.

I find it amusing that the ranged ranger and poly druid are your examples of classes with multiple build options, as those are the two classes that i have spent YEARS pushing for items to make those viable.

So, lets come up with other builds for all classes and keep coming up with items to make them a reality.

With only 20 UR's a year it will take years to come up with variety. I am not saying that is good or bad, just the with 20 UR's a year over 10 characters it will take some time.

jedibcg wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I have the same concerns and would also like to see more variety in builds. I have had discussions with Jeff about some future possibilities that might help out in this area, but I have no idea if/when any of them might happen. But it is something that is worth bringing up during future token development (that will be happening pretty soon on the forums I'm sure for 2019).

From my perspective, it isn't ideal to have any one token be the only good choice for a given slot on a given class. And especially not for a bunch of classes. I would love to see each class have at least two solid build choices, or ultimately 24 pretty different but very solid builds.

You get more of this in some classes than others. There are serious ranged Ranger builds and serious Melee Ranger builds. There are polymorph-focused Druids. I have seen Melee-focused Wizards.

I find it amusing that the ranged ranger and poly druid are your examples of classes with multiple build options, as those are the two classes that i have spent YEARS pushing for items to make those viable.

So, lets come up with other builds for all classes and keep coming up with items to make them a reality.

With only 20 UR's a year it will take years to come up with variety. I am not saying that is good or bad, just the with 20 UR's a year over 10 characters it will take some time.

Perhaps the tokens don't need to be UR. And perhaps they won't compete with the legendary tokens, but maybe they'll cause some people to think and make choices at the lower levels. Or perhaps they have interesting side benefits that make them worthwhile. IDK, I'm just spitballing here.

One option I'd like to see more of is the buffing wizard. Now, admittedly, I can already do this at levels I'm overequipped for by swapping into junky spells, but it would help if the junky spells were less junky in comparison to damage spells. An alternative idea, something I recall someone mentioning in some thread, was having wizards put more effects on monsters rather than damage. Debuff stuff. And, in last year's development threads, there was my comment about how scrolls that did weird things don't appear as often nor get used much. Can only make it rain so many times before that gets old, too.

I'd like to see different class special abilities that lend more towards certain builds, which would mean class card changes. The RoSP classes are restricted to certain players so heavily (and some aren't really that interesting) that they don't help a lot for variety unless they get opened up more.

Retribution is a build that can be done by different classes but too unreliable outside of dwarf.

Of course, the more you have class D do things like class E, the less identity E has. And, the more esoteric abilities become, the harder it is to balance encounters. I do find that I can do a variety of different builds if I play at lower levels, but that doesn't solve the desire for more and more power/efficiency.

Since effects are becoming more common, maybe tokens that negate or give resistance to said effects. But, this is a crap shoot as well. I've definitely worn IS iridescent spindle and have not needed it :-/ But maybe this is an ok thing, having a benefit for properly outfitted characters. So long as the penalty is "minor" enough. Like the invisible monsters. Or spell resistance.

Phrash wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jon wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Yes, I wasn't happy about Thor's Hammer at all. For my melee-focused Ranger, it is a better choice than Io's Bow. And for virtually every other class it is also the best choice for both melee and ranged.

How come?

Why is it the best choice for most classes? Because it is an awesome thrown weapon (which means it gets your STR bonus added in) and can be used for both melee and ranged by every class.

Why do I dislike it? Because it is the best choice for just about every weapon and every class, therefore decreasing build variety.

At least it's not used much by monks, seeing that it's not flurry-of-blow compatible.

*Edit: I am saying this with slight sarcasm, as this is the only class I see that does not benefit from using Thor's.

I don't expect many Clerics to be using Thor's either. You either give up your armor to wear the Legendary robes, or you give up 3 slots.

Matt Goodman wrote: Perhaps the tokens don't need to be UR. And perhaps they won't compete with the legendary tokens, but maybe they'll cause some people to think and make choices at the lower levels. Or perhaps they have interesting side benefits that make them worthwhile. IDK, I'm just spitballing here.

The most desirable (for whatever reason) tokens should be UR and higher because UR tokens drive token sales. We need token sales for props and such. If folks can get most desirable tokens with having to spend enough to get UR's then there isn't a reason to spend as much on tokens (besides funding TD for the good of TD).

One way to break the logjam would be to have a wider variety of character classes. Obviously that creates coaching and party card challenges.

Harlax wrote: One way to break the logjam would be to have a wider variety of character classes. Obviously that creates coaching and party card challenges.

Would that create more variety of token builds though are would that just have those same builds.

What I mean is that we have a new Minotaur soldier (or whatever) wouldn't it still use the same type of build max out strength and so on?

Harlax wrote: One way to break the logjam would be to have a wider variety of character classes. Obviously that creates coaching and party card challenges.

How about the level 10 reward is to create your own class (must use base stats and equipment of an existing class...for app reasons)

jedibcg wrote:

Harlax wrote: One way to break the logjam would be to have a wider variety of character classes. Obviously that creates coaching and party card challenges.

Would that create more variety of token builds though are would that just have those same builds.

What I mean is that we have a new Minotaur soldier (or whatever) wouldn't it still use the same type of build max out strength and so on?

More variety in builds would be the goal. We hear ideas about finesse fighters, Dex as the key attribute, not strength. Maybe classes where INT or WIS are the key stats.

Creativity would be important. If we just get three new ways to stack strength, then nothing has been accomplished

I'd like to point out that Wand based wizards have come a long way this past year with the rule change on wands.

Perhaps we should be looking for a space like that to carve out new sub-builds.

I know tomes have been mentioned to help diversify wizards even further.

I know someone (I think Kirk) has been calling for a new unique Bard instrument.

I'd like to see an elemental monk (5e subclass).

Scroll bard also became a thing recently.

That said I still hold out hope for a monk boot weapon, I think a kicking monk would be awesome. Perhaps it could give a monk something equivalent to a flurry compatible two hander build where the monk only slid one damage boot with a larger wheel.