TOPIC: HP Hoarders Anonymous

Picc wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: We probably do need to see an official statement about the "new" rules again for lesser maze and timing after the changes.

Honestly the next time we reprint the cards I think maze needs to just be replaced with something else entirely. This is far from the first time it has caused trouble.

What are the problems with maze?

Doesn't it basically require you to win initiative to benefit much, other than a prep round?

Can someone explain how the lcoked the ogre out and still did damage?

ok, so yes, my experience is that hp hasn't been an issue to this point. last year I had more than I needed. This year I needed to switch out the Shirt of the Underdark for Shirt of Focus. Still not an issue. I got down to where one giant AOE would kill me a couple of times, but still managed to live.

I will cut myself every round. Does it make sense? No, not always, but this is my wizard's personality. I have cut myself to death once and it was the most heroic, epic and memorable run I've ever had. I guess losing 5 more hp will bring me closer to doing that again.

I do multiple runs at every con. I did 15 at Origins and 19 at Gen Con. I'm planning to do 12 at GHC. If I do a PUG run I likely won't get 10 for synergy. I'll at least get 4 in that slot due to Wil's Dragonheart. Although, if the group runs normal, I likely won't use MEC because it's just overkill. I probably have around 40 or 50 distilled healing potions. Those wouldn't last me more than one con if I had to use them on a regular basis. So I'm more worried about the loss of healing by clerics and druids. Thus I'm also more nervous about losing any more hp. So yes, I will keep a Tavernbane around because I could care less about losing Dex and Str. They can take another 2 of each if they want to give me 2 more CON.

So would the loss of 5 hp have killed me at any time during my 19 runs at Gen Con? No, but I would have been down to single digits several more times. What's next? Right now I have to run Ioun Stone Charming Cobuchen and Garnet Cube to get more hp. I'm limited to 5 ioun stones due to Icecrag's and Inspiration. Now 2 stones are tied up with treasure enhancers. At what point do I start losing hp from that slot?

So yeah, the wizards are still fine, they are just headed toward a more precarious position. For me, my wizard personality is MEC. It's fun. In general, I do more damage to myself than the dungeon does. Without it, I likely would switch classes. And yeah, right now I can get my wizard up to 100hp and still consider it a nightmare build. I just have to give up a handful of spell damage.

Sorry for the random thoughts, just thought I'd throw them into the mix.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: We probably do need to see an official statement about the "new" rules again for lesser maze and timing after the changes.

Honestly the next time we reprint the cards I think maze needs to just be replaced with something else entirely. This is far from the first time it has caused trouble.

What are the problems with maze?

Doesn't it basically require you to win initiative to benefit much, other than a prep round?

Can someone explain how the locked the ogre out and still did damage?

Historically there has been a desire to prevent repeated monster stun lock (which I believe was used to great effect this year past against the Dracus). There was also a similar issue a few years back with the monk stun locking monsters repeatedly but that got fixed.

MasterED wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: The hit to the hp is small and can be mitigated. I'm more concerned about the loss of the uber healing that use to keep us going without consumables. Add to that the cost of using the wands as backup and it's starting to get pricey.

It does help that we are getting the tome to bump our damage up a little but I'm interested in seeing where the loss of spell resistance will take us going forward.

The going back on the way that Lesser Maze works changes things too. After the first run through N1 at origins they realized there was a problem when I mazed the ogre mage three times in a row using maze, spelll storing, and crown of expertise. Their answer to it was to give him spell immunity which later changed at Gen Con.

We've been nerfed quite a bit both at hp and capability.

I was either on that run or one just like it - just nerfed that combat.

I don't think we will see spell resistance - we could see spell immunity to avoid broken combats but I suspect it would be rare.

Ed

I don't know if Adam was on the very first run of N1 at Origins with us, but all the combats were undertuned. So much so that with winning initiative in each combat, not a single monster even got to swing at us. That was not fun. The DM on the ship was grumbling that he had warned TPTB about this exact scenario.

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: We probably do need to see an official statement about the "new" rules again for lesser maze and timing after the changes.

Honestly the next time we reprint the cards I think maze needs to just be replaced with something else entirely. This is far from the first time it has caused trouble.

What are the problems with maze?

Doesn't it basically require you to win initiative to benefit much, other than a prep round?

Can someone explain how the locked the ogre out and still did damage?

Historically there has been a desire to prevent repeated monster stun lock (which I believe was used to great effect this year past against the Dracus). There was also a similar issue a few years back with the monk stun locking monsters repeatedly but that got fixed.

I guess I don't understsand how repeated mazing is a stun lock, I thought it would be more of a noninteraction lock.

Round 1:
Player win initiative
Players attack + maze cast
Monster banished

Round 2:
Players high five each other
Monster banished

New initiative! Monster wins:
Monster attacks
Player attack + maze is cast

Round 3:
Players back slap each other
Monster banished

New initiataive! Players win:
Player attack + maze is cast
Monster banished


And so on... I guess its a stun lock if you keep winning the initiative.

if you lose the initiative doesn't it just do nothing other than give players a round of prep?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: We probably do need to see an official statement about the "new" rules again for lesser maze and timing after the changes.

Honestly the next time we reprint the cards I think maze needs to just be replaced with something else entirely. This is far from the first time it has caused trouble.

What are the problems with maze?

Doesn't it basically require you to win initiative to benefit much, other than a prep round?

Can someone explain how the locked the ogre out and still did damage?

In the first run of N1 at Origins, we mazed the Ogre to allow us to get all our melee in contact. With full Charms of Awakened Synergy and our Elf Wizard and his staff of power, we were +20 to initiative..And then we took him down on one round of slides and spells.All the combats in that first run were under tuned.

While it takes a well equipped group to achieve that +20 to initiative, its very doable. Hence the bonus monsters started receiving to initiative at Gencon.

Yes, first run if N1 at origins. We could if mazed the ogre three times with the wizard...once more with the cleric resetting the ability. We never mazed the draccus.

Harlax wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: We probably do need to see an official statement about the "new" rules again for lesser maze and timing after the changes.

Honestly the next time we reprint the cards I think maze needs to just be replaced with something else entirely. This is far from the first time it has caused trouble.

What are the problems with maze?

Doesn't it basically require you to win initiative to benefit much, other than a prep round?

Can someone explain how the locked the ogre out and still did damage?

In the first run of N1 at Origins, we mazed the Ogre to allow us to get all our melee in contact. With full Charms of Awakened Synergy and our Elf Wizard and his staff of power, we were +20 to initiative..And then we took him down on one round of slides and spells.All the combats in that first run were under tuned.

While it takes a well equipped group to achieve that +20 to initiative, its very doable. Hence the bonus monsters started receiving to initiative at Gencon.

You guys are tactical geniuses!


Although - it would seem I owe you a complaint!


My group had +10 initive mod and rolled a 14 against the Rakshatha and the DM didn't even roll - he was like: it can't lose.


Are you to blame for stupid high monster initiative

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Adam Guay wrote: We probably do need to see an official statement about the "new" rules again for lesser maze and timing after the changes.

Honestly the next time we reprint the cards I think maze needs to just be replaced with something else entirely. This is far from the first time it has caused trouble.

What are the problems with maze?

Doesn't it basically require you to win initiative to benefit much, other than a prep round?

Can someone explain how the locked the ogre out and still did damage?

Historically there has been a desire to prevent repeated monster stun lock (which I believe was used to great effect this year past against the Dracus). There was also a similar issue a few years back with the monk stun locking monsters repeatedly but that got fixed.

I might have had help with stun locking the Mindfslayer from the cleric and druid... restore spell, restore power and 2 stuns = 4 rounds of beat a mindslayer down...

Be careful how you chain things it could get stuff reworked or errataed

One solution is to change the elf wizard alertness spell to add a bonus of +1 to the existing party initiative for each character not equipped with either a Charm of Awareness or Charm of Awakened Synergy.

edwin wrote: One solution is to change the elf wizard alertness spell to add a bonus of +1 to the existing party initiative for each character not equipped with either a Charm of Awareness or Charm of Awakened Synergy.

I hope that doesnt happen, but I get what you're trying to accomplish.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

edwin wrote: One solution is to change the elf wizard alertness spell to add a bonus of +1 to the existing party initiative for each character not equipped with either a Charm of Awareness or Charm of Awakened Synergy.

I hope that doesnt happen, but I get what you're trying to accomplish.

Agreed in terms of hoping it doesn't happen. That would be a heck of a nerf to hand down to all the people who put hundreds of dollars down to win initiative with charms of awareness/awakened synergy this year.