TOPIC: Lute of Fury Discussion

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think +1 to hit is important, but it takes the bard out of the combat more by not allowing them to do anything else.

As initially written it a was +2/+2
Relic +2/+2 and actions
Legendary +3/+3 actions, and save reroll

Which were probably all too good.

Though the sting of not sliding would be helped a LOT by the additional + to hit.

I could see +1/+0 and may attack with this weapon in melee on the UR lute.

Forgive me, as I've never really familiarized myself with the various bard instruments.

Is there already one that allows you to make a Lore check while singing? It's a very limited action, but might make sense to tack it on without upping the power of LoF too much.

Arnold wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I think +1 to hit is important, but it takes the bard out of the combat more by not allowing them to do anything else.

As initially written it a was +2/+2
Relic +2/+2 and actions
Legendary +3/+3 actions, and save reroll

Which were probably all too good.

Though the sting of not sliding would be helped a LOT by the additional + to hit.

I could see +1/+0 and may attack with this weapon in melee on the UR lute.

Forgive me, as I've never really familiarized myself with the various bard instruments.

Is there already one that allows you to make a Lore check while singing? It's a very limited action, but might make sense to tack it on without upping the power of LoF too much.

The Lyre of Lore is the instrument that allows lore check while singing.

There is also an uncommon that gives +1 to hit (Lyre of Rage), and one that gives +2 damage (magnificent instrument) so when using the lute of fury UR, you either get +1 damage over an uncommon, or +1 to hit, but -1 damage from an uncommon.

Endgame wrote: There is also an uncommon that gives +1 to hit (Lyre of Rage), and one that gives +2 damage (magnificent instrument) so when using the lute of fury UR, you either get +1 damage over an uncommon, or +1 to hit, but -1 damage from an uncommon.

Yeah, +1 damage over the uncommon really doesn't feel like much.

On the other hand, it could be argued that +1 to hit is OP at the uncommon level, and probably should have been a rare.

If we could go
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+3 and can do anything, plus saves

Is that too good?

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Legendary +2/+3 and can do anything, plus saves

Is that too good?

I would rather the Legendary be +2/+2, can do anything, plus saves.

With 5th level bardsong, that would be +4/+4. So hypothetically, if a whole group of 10 people hit every round, the bard would get credit for 40 damage every single round, not including whatever damage they do on their own slide. That might not be much on the higher difficulties, but on Normal and to a lesser extent Hardcore, 40 damage every turn is nothing to sneeze at. It's enough to end combat two, perhaps three rounds earlier than otherwise.

Now, if the Legendary was +2/+3, you're looking at 50 damage every round in the same hypothetical. That just seems absurdly high to me.

On the other hand, the time, money, and ingredients required to craft a Legendary, maybe +2/+3 isn't so crazy. I mean, if you have a Legendary, chances are high you also have a number of URs and aren't running Normal mode PUGs.

I just feel like the UR might not be good enough, particularly when compared with previous URs which allowed the Bard to do something other than just bardsong, and when compared with previous uncommons, one of which allowed +1 hit.

Maybe
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+2, can do anything, save effect

Is that good enough for the Relic to Legendary bump? The re-roll for the party is VERY powerful.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I just feel like the UR might not be good enough, particularly when compared with previous URs which allowed the Bard to do something other than just bardsong, and when compared with previous uncommons, one of which allowed +1 hit.

Maybe
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+2, can do anything, save effect

Is that good enough for the Relic to Legendary bump? The re-roll for the party is VERY powerful.

I'd much rather leave the Relic and Legendary as is, and change the UR to +1 to hit and you can use weapons.

But, maybe there's a subset of Bards that really just want to sing and help buff the party, and aren't that into slides. This UR would fit that pretty well.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I just feel like the UR might not be good enough, particularly when compared with previous URs which allowed the Bard to do something other than just bardsong, and when compared with previous uncommons, one of which allowed +1 hit.

Maybe
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+2, can do anything, save effect

Is that good enough for the Relic to Legendary bump? The re-roll for the party is VERY powerful.

I'd much rather leave the Relic and Legendary as is, and change the UR to +1 to hit and you can use weapons.

But, maybe there's a subset of Bards that really just want to sing and help buff the party, and aren't that into slides. This UR would fit that pretty well.

Any love for putting a damage wheel on the UR and leaving it as +1 / +1? That way it can be used for melee attacks to differentiate it more from Windseth's Mystical Lute than just +1 / +1 vs +0 / +2?

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I just feel like the UR might not be good enough, particularly when compared with previous URs which allowed the Bard to do something other than just bardsong, and when compared with previous uncommons, one of which allowed +1 hit.

Maybe
UR +1/+2
Relic +1/+2 and can do anything
Legendary +2/+2, can do anything, save effect

Is that good enough for the Relic to Legendary bump? The re-roll for the party is VERY powerful.

I'd much rather leave the Relic and Legendary as is, and change the UR to +1 to hit and you can use weapons.

But, maybe there's a subset of Bards that really just want to sing and help buff the party, and aren't that into slides. This UR would fit that pretty well.

Any love for putting a damage wheel on the UR and leaving it as +1 / +1? That way it can be used for melee attacks to differentiate it more from Windseth's Mystical Lute than just +1 / +1 vs +0 / +2?

I would appreciate that from a functional standpoint. I personally wouldn't use it, since I run a high DEX ranged build, but I'm sure there would be melee bards who would be into that idea.

This is a perfect example of the token creation process. It was designed nicely originally but there was an outcry of "OP" and in came the nerf bat. Now we're left with a less then popular UR. Its still going to get picked up but primary as a transmute.


What is sad is the argument that stuck was basically "bards are already OP don't make them even stronger!"
...sigh...

People are still complaining about the legendary.

I'm secretly hoping that Jeff "accidentally" sends the original graphics to the printer and restores this line of tokens to their former glory.

And for all those people still complaining about "power creep!" yeah its called class specific legendaries. Every class that gets one is going to get some power creep. I"m surprised that more people aren't complaining about the druid belt. I'd say the rogues are getting some creep as well but they are so far behind on the power curve I view this as more of an adjustment.

valetutto wrote: This is a perfect example of the token creation process. It was designed nicely originally but there was an outcry of "OP" and in came the nerf bat. Now we're left with a less then popular UR. Its still going to get picked up but primary as a transmute.


What is sad is the argument that stuck was basically "bards are already OP don't make them even stronger!"
...sigh...

People are still complaining about the legendary.

I'm secretly hoping that Jeff "accidentally" sends the original graphics to the printer and restores this line of tokens to their former glory.

And for all those people still complaining about "power creep!" yeah its called class specific legendaries. Every class that gets one is going to get some power creep. I"m surprised that more people aren't complaining about the druid belt. I'd say the rogues are getting some creep as well but they are so far behind on the power curve I view this as more of an adjustment.

There was equal outcry about the druid necklace. I've been saying basically the same thing regarding class specific legendaries and power creep.

The UR belt got bumped down on its damage wheel but that was more than compensated for by making transforming a free action.

Hopefully enough relic lutes get made to free up the existing UR instruments. Not the solution we need, but it would at least avoid a zero sum situation.

Arnold wrote:

valetutto wrote: This is a perfect example of the token creation process. It was designed nicely originally but there was an outcry of "OP" and in came the nerf bat. Now we're left with a less then popular UR. Its still going to get picked up but primary as a transmute.


What is sad is the argument that stuck was basically "bards are already OP don't make them even stronger!"
...sigh...

People are still complaining about the legendary.

I'm secretly hoping that Jeff "accidentally" sends the original graphics to the printer and restores this line of tokens to their former glory.

And for all those people still complaining about "power creep!" yeah its called class specific legendaries. Every class that gets one is going to get some power creep. I"m surprised that more people aren't complaining about the druid belt. I'd say the rogues are getting some creep as well but they are so far behind on the power curve I view this as more of an adjustment.

There was equal outcry about the druid necklace. I've been saying basically the same thing regarding class specific legendaries and power creep.

The UR belt got bumped down on its damage wheel but that was more than compensated for by making transforming a free action.

Hopefully enough relic lutes get made to free up the existing UR instruments. Not the solution we need, but it would at least avoid a zero sum situation.

The relic and legendary lute recipes will be very interesting to me.