TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote: I like the earlier suggestion of 1 aragonite, 6 dwarven steel. Someone showed the math earlier, it's actually harder to get bismuth than it is aragonite, since aragonite can be made of weapons AND armor, not just weapons. There's a lot more bismuth being used in other recipes now, so that's going to be a valuable commodity soon.

It is easier (with treasure pulls) to get an Aragonite than _a_ Elven Bismuth or _a_ Oil of Enchantment (as opposed to 1/2 of EB and 1/2 of OE).

From token 10 packs however, you get 1 AG for every 1 EB&OE you get (roughly).

The latter is why AG is worth more than EB and OE.

I'll happily trade you EB or OE for AG any time you want.

Another way to say it:

You get one red and two green from a pack.

You need a combination of 25 armor and/or weapons to make an Aragonite from packs.

You need 25 weapons and 25 armor to make an Oil and a Bismuth.

On average, if you open enough packs to make an Aragonite, you’ll have an Oil and a Bismuth as well. But, that assumes perfect distribution. Odds are you’ll have more than you need for an Oil and less than you need for a Bis. Or visa versa. A lot of trade goods are made by buyers who mulch a large period their stuff, as Matt says, the prices usually reflects that.

But it depends on the tokens in the set. This year (unless I miscounted) there are 6 green weapons, 6 green armor, and only 10 red weapons and armor, so you’ll probably have an Oil and a Bismuth before you get an Aragonite. (For 2015 those numbers were 5/6/12)

But, if you are a player drawing treasure, the rares and uncommons have been roughly equal. This year, by the time you pull enough to make an Oil and a Bis, you’ll probably have enough for something like 1.6 Aragonite. (In 2015, you’d have had about 2.)

Which one is best will depend on how you purchase and play, and what you have lying around from previous years. If you buy them from the secondary market, it should be about a wash.

Subject to many variables, YMMV, void where prohibited.

Fiddy wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I like the overall cost on the whetstone. I’m completely cool with changing the way the cost is structured to make it more accessible.

Currently it’s
1× Aragonite
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Elven Bismuth
500 GP equivalent
Monster bit

I think that’s about $50 to $65 in ingredients. Maybe something like this.

2× Alchemist’s Ink
1× Alchemist’s Parchment
3× Darkwood Plank
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Enchanter’s Munition
1× Minotaur Hide
3× Mystic Silk
2× Philosopher’s Stone
1000 GP
2 monster bits

We could disagree on weather this would be too high or not, but it’s achievable in a 250 pack with the exception of the monster bits.

Heck, I'd take that as well. My only real objection is BOTH the aragonite and the bismuth, two semi-rare materials, for a token that while very good, is still situational.

You keep saying "situational". Usually when we say that, it means things that are out of the control of the player (underground or not, facing a certain type of enemy, etc). Whether the player is using a Rare weapon is fully in the control of the player.

If I was still using a War shillelagh as my main weapon then I would consider the whetstone situational. It’s makes rares better in certain years then many URs.

JesterSB wrote: As someone who outfits a rare level party, the whetstone was exciting to me until the transmute recipe hit. I can make a grand total of one of these. Womp womp. If I can buy them for $50 each, why wouldn’t I just buy $50 UR weapons? One less token to lug around.

Because the $50 UR can only go to one character, and depending on which one you get, can only be equipped by certain classes.

Also, that UR is likely not compound, so would only help melee or ranged, bot both.

Finally, the whetstone will likely stay useful in your group for years to come. Unless you buy outdated $50 UR weapons every year.

Fiddy wrote:
When we're talking about the costs for this, you absolutely need to consider the people that are going to benefit the most. Because that's when things become overpowered, when the people that benefit the most have too easy a time to get it. You don't need to consider the people using common and uncommon weapons when determining the cost, because they have no reason to make this in the first place.

I get what you're saying, but in this case, by its own limits, the whetstone can't become overpowered. It's a finite bonus, with very specific requirements. The only way this is going to become over powered is if the power level of rare weapons goes completely off the rails. It's not like the other various tokens that have historically been too good, since we're not doubling anything, we're not modifying a class mechanic, bypassing a skill check, making it so the wearer can't be hit, or anything crazy. It's just +1/+1, IF you are using a rare. It's slotless, but the "slot" disappears if you improve the weapon.

JesterSB wrote: As someone who outfits a rare level party, the whetstone was exciting to me until the transmute recipe hit. I can make a grand total of one of these. Womp womp. If I can buy them for $50 each, why wouldn’t I just buy $50 UR weapons? One less token to lug around.

I have seen 2 times recently the +2 War shillelagh sale for $50. I purchased one of the two at that price myself. The War shillelagh is a great weapon but is going dirt cheap IMO. I picked up my holy sword for $40 just for novelty and used it once when playing barbarian. +2 Staff of striking isn’t very good but I picked one up as a loaner for $30.
There are plenty of cheep UR weapons if you keep on the lookout for them.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

JesterSB wrote: As someone who outfits a rare level party, the whetstone was exciting to me until the transmute recipe hit. I can make a grand total of one of these. Womp womp. If I can buy them for $50 each, why wouldn’t I just buy $50 UR weapons? One less token to lug around.

Because the $50 UR can only go to one character, and depending on which one you get, can only be equipped by certain classes.

Also, that UR is likely not compound, so would only help melee or ranged, bot both.

Finally, the whetstone will likely stay useful in your group for years to come. Unless you buy outdated $50 UR weapons every year.

I would be getting 7 of these whetstones if it were economical, so the “one character” benefit isn’t a benefit at all.

Let’s be honest, this isn’t going to help my party’s ranged damage output enough for me to care about that. At the rare level, there just aren’t enough ranged damage adders (that also don’t interfere with my melee adders) for me to ever really care about it.

Any +2 weapon (even old “outdated” ones) afford the same benefit as this in melee.

I understand the versatility of this item, I just can’t justify the cost.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

JesterSB wrote: As someone who outfits a rare level party, the whetstone was exciting to me until the transmute recipe hit. I can make a grand total of one of these. Womp womp. If I can buy them for $50 each, why wouldn’t I just buy $50 UR weapons? One less token to lug around.

I have seen 2 times recently the +2 War shillelagh sale for $50. I purchased one of the two at that price myself. The War shillelagh is a great weapon but is going dirt cheap IMO. I picked up my holy sword for $40 just for novelty and used it once when playing barbarian. +2 Staff of striking isn’t very good but I picked one up as a loaner for $30.
There are plenty of cheep UR weapons if you keep on the lookout for them.

This is exactly my point. I would never make the whetstone, and I’m sure there are others in the same boat as me, since the cost is just too high for the benefit.

JesterSB wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

JesterSB wrote: As someone who outfits a rare level party, the whetstone was exciting to me until the transmute recipe hit. I can make a grand total of one of these. Womp womp. If I can buy them for $50 each, why wouldn’t I just buy $50 UR weapons? One less token to lug around.

I have seen 2 times recently the +2 War shillelagh sale for $50. I purchased one of the two at that price myself. The War shillelagh is a great weapon but is going dirt cheap IMO. I picked up my holy sword for $40 just for novelty and used it once when playing barbarian. +2 Staff of striking isn’t very good but I picked one up as a loaner for $30.
There are plenty of cheep UR weapons if you keep on the lookout for them.

This is exactly my point. I would never make the whetstone, and I’m sure there are others in the same boat as me, since the cost is just too high for the benefit.

It’s a expensive token to be sure but I think it’s cheep compared to what it does. I really look at the Whetstone as a UR level token, I know many on here will disagree with me on that, but I think it’s that good.

For a rare build it is a slotless item that basically gives a +2 strength and +2 dex bonus to your range and melee weapon. The fact you don’t give anything up on your build to make space for it makes it amazing.

When we're talking about this, maybe we do have to ask, what IS the intended audience?

If it's intended for the crowd that mostly uses reds, with a handful of purples, it's not worth it for the target audience. A person who can afford to make the whetstone can afford to buy an UR that's better, and probably in that case wants to put their crafting materials towards something else, especially in light of how the recipe costs are increasing.

If it's intended to share with lesser members of your party, then with the current materials cost we're going under the assumption that the "targetted audience" of this item is financially well off enough to buy equipment for not only themselves, but also for their party.

Adam Pillari wrote: When we're talking about this, maybe we do have to ask, what IS the intended audience?

Good question.

This seems like one of those situations where people don’t agree on the solution because they don’t agree on what problem they’re trying to solve.

Because of the compressed schedule this year it’s probably too late to change what it does, but there’s probably time to adjust the recipe.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote: When we're talking about this, maybe we do have to ask, what IS the intended audience?

Good question.

This seems like one of those situations where people don’t agree on the solution because they don’t agree on what problem they’re trying to solve.

Because of the compressed schedule this year it’s probably too late to change what it does, but there’s probably time to adjust the recipe.

I would love some actual clarification from TPTB on this so we can actually provide constructive feedback.