TOPIC: Need FB: Change to Cumulative Penalty Limimitation

I definitely think the changes make sense and are in the right direction.

I think the -6 is fine for Saving Throws, Armor Class, To Hit modifiers, and Damage modifiers.

I still think the system is problematic for ability scores and maximum hit points.

1. Firstly ability scores and HP scale very differently. -1 to an ability score doesn't really do anything normally, you need a -2 to actually result in a change. It's even more drastic with HP where 6 HP is a relatively small amount nowadays. Max of -6 HP reduction is even less relevant for Monster HP (which scales differently even more).

2. Secondly, attributes are tricky because they do very little by themselves (other than the handful of tokens that have a minimum stat requirement). Most attributes have an impact on some of the other stats like Saving Throws, AC, To Hit, and Damage. So if an attribute gets reduced, which reduces AC/To Hit, does that also count as a "reduction" to AC/To Hit?

3. Also, does "reduction" include hypothetical abilities that set attributes to certain values? The traditional Feebleminde spell comes to mind, which sets Intelligence (and maybe Charisma) to 1. You could also imagine polymorph effects which set Strength or Dexterity to very low numbers.

The proposed change looks good.

I agree 100%.

Is this a forum record?

Kirk Bauer wrote: Is this a forum record?

YES!

Druegar wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Is this a forum record?

YES!

I disagree! this is a horrible change and its change for the sake of change. I've been using this for the last 15 years and its my god given right to continue to do so, in fact you insult my ancestry by even suggesting such a change. We can never be friends again and I retroactively take back every nice thing I've ever said.





Just kidding.
I too agree.

valetutto wrote: I disagree! this is a horrible change and its change for the sake of change. I've been using this for the last 15 years and its my god given right to continue to do so, in fact you insult my ancestry by even suggesting such a change. We can never be friends again and I retroactively take back every nice thing I've ever said.

WHEW! there's the Internet I've come to know and... "love".

Hey - one thing that occurred to me as a corner case here:

Consider Gertz's Radiant Backpack:

1. What if 5x Fiendish Charm (-10 CON) are in it.

Bard, Paladin, and Rogue would be reduced to 0 CON.

What happens if those players are selected in a run with that configuration?

The most elegant solution would be to have Gertz's count as a temporary bonus that begins inside the dungeon - but then any boosts it grants wouldn't be on the party card...

Alternatively, you could make it so penalties can only be applied to you in the coaching room based on your equipment, not based on anyone elses (right now Gertz's is the only think I can think of where another player can effect your stats directly in the coaching room).

Matthew Hayward wrote: Hey - one thing that occurred to me as a corner case here:

Consider Gertz's Radiant Backpack:

1. What if 5x Fiendish Charm (-10 CON) are in it.

Bard, Paladin, and Rogue would be reduced to 0 CON.

What happens if those players are selected in a run with that configuration?

The most elegant solution would be to have Gertz's count as a temporary bonus that begins inside the dungeon - but then any boosts it grants wouldn't be on the party card...

Alternatively, you could make it so penalties can only be applied to you in the coaching room based on your equipment, not based on anyone elses (right now Gertz's is the only think I can think of where another player can effect your stats directly in the coaching room).

I think the most elegant answer is, Gertz shouldn't do that. Even if it didn't insta-kill a third of the party, everyone would be at at -25 max HP (assuming they're level 5). So, there go your wizards, too.

If you want the bonuses, you have to accept the penalties. That's how the tokens were designed and balanced, so ignoring the part you don't like makes them stronger than intended. So you can just leave the rule as is.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Hey - one thing that occurred to me as a corner case here:

Consider Gertz's Radiant Backpack:

1. What if 5x Fiendish Charm (-10 CON) are in it.

Bard, Paladin, and Rogue would be reduced to 0 CON.

What happens if those players are selected in a run with that configuration?

The most elegant solution would be to have Gertz's count as a temporary bonus that begins inside the dungeon - but then any boosts it grants wouldn't be on the party card...

Alternatively, you could make it so penalties can only be applied to you in the coaching room based on your equipment, not based on anyone elses (right now Gertz's is the only think I can think of where another player can effect your stats directly in the coaching room).

I think the most elegant answer is, Gertz shouldn't do that. Even if it didn't insta-kill a third of the party, everyone would be at at -25 max HP (assuming they're level 5). So, there go your wizards, too.

If you want the bonuses, you have to accept the penalties. That's how the tokens were designed and balanced, so ignoring the part you don't like makes them stronger than intended. So you can just leave the rule as is.

The Gertz backpack can't stack items. It can only have one of each item in it and one cannot wear an item that is in the backpack (offers no additional benefit). One cannot have two +2 RoP added to it, and if a +2 RoP is in the backpack wearing a +2 RoP gains nothing more than +2 AC total for the pair. But the backpack could have a +1 RoP, a +2 RoP, and a +4 RoP. +2 Mithral Bracers, and +3 Mithral Bracers (+12 AC), but none of the exact same item.

Donald Rients wrote: The Gertz backpack can't stack items. It can only have one of each item in it and one cannot wear an item that is in the backpack (offers no additional benefit).

Someday there may be a five cursed items that could stack to kill players before they start. Until then, it sounds like this isn't an issue.

When that day comes, I'm still in favor of just leaving the rules as is, and Gertz should be a team player and not kill half the party in the coaching room.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: The Gertz backpack can't stack items. It can only have one of each item in it and one cannot wear an item that is in the backpack (offers no additional benefit).

Someday there may be a five cursed items that could stack to kill players before they start. Until then, it sounds like this isn't an issue.

When that day comes, I'm still in favor of just leaving the rules as is, and Gertz should be a team player and not kill half the party in the coaching room.

Would make him the first official TD PK though

Donald Rients wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Hey - one thing that occurred to me as a corner case here:

Consider Gertz's Radiant Backpack:

1. What if 5x Fiendish Charm (-10 CON) are in it.

Bard, Paladin, and Rogue would be reduced to 0 CON.

What happens if those players are selected in a run with that configuration?

The most elegant solution would be to have Gertz's count as a temporary bonus that begins inside the dungeon - but then any boosts it grants wouldn't be on the party card...

Alternatively, you could make it so penalties can only be applied to you in the coaching room based on your equipment, not based on anyone elses (right now Gertz's is the only think I can think of where another player can effect your stats directly in the coaching room).

I think the most elegant answer is, Gertz shouldn't do that. Even if it didn't insta-kill a third of the party, everyone would be at at -25 max HP (assuming they're level 5). So, there go your wizards, too.

If you want the bonuses, you have to accept the penalties. That's how the tokens were designed and balanced, so ignoring the part you don't like makes them stronger than intended. So you can just leave the rule as is.

The Gertz backpack can't stack items. It can only have one of each item in it and one cannot wear an item that is in the backpack (offers no additional benefit). One cannot have two +2 RoP added to it, and if a +2 RoP is in the backpack wearing a +2 RoP gains nothing more than +2 AC total for the pair. But the backpack could have a +1 RoP, a +2 RoP, and a +4 RoP. +2 Mithral Bracers, and +3 Mithral Bracers (+12 AC), but none of the exact same item.

Aah - thanks for clarifying - still really good but not quite as good as I imagined (e.g. 5x Gauntlets of Ogre Power or 5x +2 Cloak of Resistance!)