TOPIC: Nightmare Stats for Advanced Party Challenge?

Fiddy wrote: I think if you are looking for more of a challenge, and the discussion is solely around the combat side of things, then perhaps Grind is the place for you to get it rather than the main Dungeon.

Eric and his gang routinely kill off large swaths of Relic and Legendary equipped players.

I played Grind this year and loved it.

I just wished there were a main dungeon mode that provided challenge to a BiS type group.

On a GT run this year with a bunch of Orange and Green (or at least Purple) players it was sort of a cake walk.

I understand players can limit themselves, and the net challenge effect is the same, but psychologically it feels different.

I can tell the coach: just write down -5 AC and -5 to saves for my character please. But that feels much worse than having the monster in the module have +5 to hit and +5 to threat DC.

If I'm optimizing my build and then just ramping down my own stats, I'm not really "using" my tokens.


TL;DR - At top gearing levels TD provides player AC in the 35-50 range, saves in the +20 range, player to-hit bonuses in the +25 range, and player HP in the 30-75 range.

I think it would be neat if there were a main dungeon way to challenge those stats.

The power divide keeps growing; I say leave NM how it is and add Epic. I know there are concerns but I think it is the only option long term.

Now, how would I make NM more difficult? I'd actually say we only have to adjust one thing. Make the monsters more lethal. We don't need to adjust their HP, AC, or even to-hit. Just make the attacks better. As the OP mentioned, more multiple attacks, ideally area of effect ones. These don't have to be that slow; the monster can make one roll against the whole party.

I especially like more thematic attacks. When the Ranger charges up to the Beholder and sticks a dagger or two in its eye, that Ranger should get his a** kicked. Perhaps he considers using a bow for the next round? Generally at NM (or Epic) I'd like to see either attacks against ALL players who attacked in melee that round, or all players, or an interesting mix (e.g. an evil monster picking on the good players such as the cleric). Or an area attack against everybody who hurt him last round. And the attacks need to be much more powerful. And more saves against attacks (like we do a lot in Grind you can have one player roll for the whole party).

This will accomplish many things. First of all, glass cannon builds won't be as effective so we may have to invest in better AC (great timing that we have new Legendaries for that). And better saves. And damage reduction. This means we can't focus as much on STR, and it will help balance the Ranger and Monk power levels. And the Wizards and ranged attackers get a bump since they'll be targeted less. And the Paladin will want to wear the necklace to guard both wizards. And the healers will be healing instead of attacking. And it will take more strategy around whether you charge ahead or hold back for a round and start with ranged. Or heal others.

Additionally if we don't have super-optimized melee damage builds, and we have to do more healing, we won't deal as much damage each round and the monsters won't be so easy.

Here are how my Nightmare combats generally went in 2016: monster shows up, unless they can't be attacked close range, all player bust out their melee weapons and blindly rush forward. The monster then tries to attack one player and probably misses. Then we attack again and the monster is dead. Not all that challenging. I'm pretty sure I never was hit on any of my four nightmare runs. By that I mean I never even used my Cloak of Shadowskin, which would have absorbed one of the hits had I got one. The only damage I received was from puzzles and even that wasn't too much. I did get healed once I believe (out of four NM runs).

One way to up the challenge at Nightmare would be to put some traps in Puzzle rooms on the combat side (only).

If once or twice per dungeon in a puzzle room the DM announced out of the blue:

OK - someone just stepped on that gray patch on the ground - them and the three players nearest to that spot roll a reflex save (with evasion).

Failed? Take 25 trap damage.

It wold add value to evasion, put pressure on healing, and not slow down combat.

It might have the knock on effect of making players more cautious in puzzle rooms, which in turn might lead to more push damage.

Probably have to think if this could actually work - and avoid spoilers, lest Sir Blabbermouth Runs-a-lot jumps in front of the party and says "NO ONE OPEN THE SECOND DRAWER, IT'S A TRAP!"


Maybe every time the Rogue botches a skill test the entire party other than the Rogue has to make a save .

Matthew Hayward wrote: One way to up the challenge at Nightmare would be to put some traps in Puzzle rooms on the combat side (only).

I like this idea. Similar things have happened before. There was a room a year or so back full of treasure chests (think it was mimic combat if I'm remembering right). Anyway once the room was done you could open the other chests, one had a +1 bastard sword in in, another exploded and did some rather heavy damage, think one of the others might have had a small heal.

Kirk Bauer wrote: The power divide keeps growing; I say leave NM how it is and add Epic. I know there are concerns but I think it is the only option long term.

Now, how would I make NM more difficult? I'd actually say we only have to adjust one thing. Make the monsters more lethal. We don't need to adjust their HP, AC, or even to-hit. Just make the attacks better. As the OP mentioned, more multiple attacks, ideally area of effect ones. These don't have to be that slow; the monster can make one roll against the whole party.

I especially like more thematic attacks. When the Ranger charges up to the Beholder and sticks a dagger or two in its eye, that Ranger should get his a** kicked. Perhaps he considers using a bow for the next round? Generally at NM (or Epic) I'd like to see either attacks against ALL players who attacked in melee that round, or all players, or an interesting mix (e.g. an evil monster picking on the good players such as the cleric). Or an area attack against everybody who hurt him last round. And the attacks need to be much more powerful. And more saves against attacks (like we do a lot in Grind you can have one player roll for the whole party).

This will accomplish many things. First of all, glass cannon builds won't be as effective so we may have to invest in better AC (great timing that we have new Legendaries for that). And better saves. And damage reduction. This means we can't focus as much on STR, and it will help balance the Ranger and Monk power levels. And the Wizards and ranged attackers get a bump since they'll be targeted less. And the Paladin will want to wear the necklace to guard both wizards. And the healers will be healing instead of attacking. And it will take more strategy around whether you charge ahead or hold back for a round and start with ranged. Or heal others.

Additionally if we don't have super-optimized melee damage builds, and we have to do more healing, we won't deal as much damage each round and the monsters won't be so easy.

Here are how my Nightmare combats generally went in 2016: monster shows up, unless they can't be attacked close range, all player bust out their melee weapons and blindly rush forward. The monster then tries to attack one player and probably misses. Then we attack again and the monster is dead. Not all that challenging. I'm pretty sure I never was hit on any of my four nightmare runs. By that I mean I never even used my Cloak of Shadowskin, which would have absorbed one of the hits had I got one. The only damage I received was from puzzles and even that wasn't too much. I did get healed once I believe (out of four NM runs).

I like nearly everything you say here, just one request: please limit rolling once for the whole party to a bare minimum. This year's beholder combats were very swingy from my experience, and best I can tell it was due to the single roll saving throw; the time we rolled a 3 and everyone failed, we lost. Roll high and it was a cake walk. It wouldn't be bad to group players (like the anti-magic eye) and roll once per group (three or four rolls total). Maybe even let the players group themselves like the lava pool fight, to add a bit of strategy (as in, don't put all your healers in the same group).

Also, I suggest adding some splash damage or cleave effects. If the main target is hit the two players next to them also take half that damage.

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: One way to up the challenge at Nightmare would be to put some traps in Puzzle rooms on the combat side (only).

I like this idea. Similar things have happened before. There was a room a year or so back full of treasure chests (think it was mimic combat if I'm remembering right). Anyway once the room was done you could open the other chests, one had a +1 bastard sword in in, another exploded and did some rather heavy damage, think one of the others might have had a small heal.

That room was awesome - from my earlier TD memories it was one of 3-4 standouts, the others being:

• The "rings" puzzle with the bells that looked like cups whose solution involved the tone of the bell when rung
• A 2007 puzzle where the floor was a grid of (apparently) numbers and a clue, but it turns out that the numbers were letters sideways! (I might have that backwards)
• Being attacked by a shambling mound that was an actor who really looked like a pile of brush
• A puzzle room that was like 1/2 courtyard, 1/2 cemetery, I think this was a puzzle room where knowledge of birthstones ended up mattering? The room itself was just awesome though - it felt large and expansive - and you could use Detect Magic to get a UV pen light and run all over the place.

In grind this year we rolled once for group attacks and then compared to each player's AC. For saves one player rolled and we added each player's bonus separately. Not sure if that's how you interpeted my suggestions or not, but I wanted to clarify. It is more swingy than rolling separately, but then again one attack roll or one save roll isn't likely to change the outcome of the whole battle and it saved a ton of time.

Kirk Bauer wrote: The power divide keeps growing; I say leave NM how it is and add Epic. I know there are concerns but I think it is the only option long term.

Now, how would I make NM more difficult? I'd actually say we only have to adjust one thing. Make the monsters more lethal. We don't need to adjust their HP, AC, or even to-hit. Just make the attacks better. As the OP mentioned, more multiple attacks, ideally area of effect ones. These don't have to be that slow; the monster can make one roll against the whole party.

I especially like more thematic attacks. When the Ranger charges up to the Beholder and sticks a dagger or two in its eye, that Ranger should get his a** kicked. Perhaps he considers using a bow for the next round? Generally at NM (or Epic) I'd like to see either attacks against ALL players who attacked in melee that round, or all players, or an interesting mix (e.g. an evil monster picking on the good players such as the cleric). Or an area attack against everybody who hurt him last round. And the attacks need to be much more powerful. And more saves against attacks (like we do a lot in Grind you can have one player roll for the whole party).

This will accomplish many things. First of all, glass cannon builds won't be as effective so we may have to invest in better AC (great timing that we have new Legendaries for that). And better saves. And damage reduction. This means we can't focus as much on STR, and it will help balance the Ranger and Monk power levels. And the Wizards and ranged attackers get a bump since they'll be targeted less. And the Paladin will want to wear the necklace to guard both wizards. And the healers will be healing instead of attacking. And it will take more strategy around whether you charge ahead or hold back for a round and start with ranged. Or heal others.

Additionally if we don't have super-optimized melee damage builds, and we have to do more healing, we won't deal as much damage each round and the monsters won't be so easy.

Here are how my Nightmare combats generally went in 2016: monster shows up, unless they can't be attacked close range, all player bust out their melee weapons and blindly rush forward. The monster then tries to attack one player and probably misses. Then we attack again and the monster is dead. Not all that challenging. I'm pretty sure I never was hit on any of my four nightmare runs. By that I mean I never even used my Cloak of Shadowskin, which would have absorbed one of the hits had I got one. The only damage I received was from puzzles and even that wasn't too much. I did get healed once I believe (out of four NM runs).

+1 to everything Kirk said. Nightmare is too easy for BIS geared players. Way too easy. Leave Nightmare alone and add Epic Nightmare.

Kirk Bauer wrote: The power divide keeps growing; I say leave NM how it is and add Epic. I know there are concerns but I think it is the only option long term.

Be careful of thinking of it as a divide, there are people all along that spectrum. Other than that, I mostly agree with Kirk.

I would avoid doing 1 roll and it effects the entire party. That seems to be extremely swingy, especially on saves. Doing it on the to-hit rolls did't feel as bad in that regards. I could see doing it for more than one party member more often though. Say, affecting 2-5 party members.

And, we should probably start thinking about what to call the next level after Epic. We'll need it in 5-7 years, and it might take us that long to come up with a name for it.

Divide was the wrong word. I meant the spread between a sealed pack build and a top build is greater than ever.

I guess one question worth asking is how many players this represents and equally important how many tickets out of 8000 does this represent?

Matthew Hayward wrote: Another option to add challenge would be to fiddle with the dice.

If monsters attacked with a d30 instead of a d20, and players saved with a d12 (and a 12 isn't auto success) it would have similar effects to the increased monster to-hit and threat DC, and wouldn't involve changing the module - just changing the dice used for "Epic" groups or whatever.

No, please not.