TOPIC: Proposed GT Class Lottery Approach

Rob F wrote: Random does = Fair.

Why? What does "fair" mean? Fair to whom? Not to the early birds.

Imagine all TD tickets were sold randomly, because that's "fair". If you want to play with your friends, let's hope you all get randomly assigned to the same run.

Brad Mortensen wrote: We're talking about forty experienced people. If we can't work it out like grownups without layers of rules, how can we expect the people holding the thousands of non-GTs to do so?

I agree, but think it's a matter of context and expectations.

Heck - I've been on 2 GT runs - and it never occurred to me that the sign up list was anything other than what it presented as: namely a place where runs and classes are selected.

I've been operating under the belief that there was a rule, and the rule was: first come, first served.

I've never tried to switch up classes, because I thought it was set by rule.

For example, I think the current system is totally fair. It rewards the big buyers who place large preorders. Everyone knows they subsidize the game for everyone else and let Jeff make better plans.

A first come first served system doesn't reward big buyers, so much as it rewards:

1. People who preorder tokens
2. And also have a short USPS delivery route is shorter to the TD factory
3. And whose tokens get shipped first (TD doesn't always get all pre-orders in the mail in 1 day).

For those who order during the preorder, factors 2 and 3 determine who gets them first, not who supported TD the most.

Rob F wrote: I didn't know that the GT's were only given to 40 experienced people??? I thought that everyone had a shot (a better shot the more you bought). I also didn't know that the GT's were designed to reward the big Token buyers??? Even if that were the case, which it's not, the only "fair" way is still to randomize class selection. And I don't see how randomizing a selection order is layering on rules.

If someone can point out a drawback for randomizing class selection order I'd be happy to listen. So far no one has.

People could get stuck playing a class that they have never played before.
May not have tokens to enhance that class.
May create a group that isn't as good potentially as it could have been.

Are the GT runs harder or are they like the rest where your group chooses a level?

FirstGladiator wrote:

Rob F wrote: I didn't know that the GT's were only given to 40 experienced people??? I thought that everyone had a shot (a better shot the more you bought). I also didn't know that the GT's were designed to reward the big Token buyers??? Even if that were the case, which it's not, the only "fair" way is still to randomize class selection. And I don't see how randomizing a selection order is layering on rules.

If someone can point out a drawback for randomizing class selection order I'd be happy to listen. So far no one has.

People could get stuck playing a class that they have never played before.
May not have tokens to enhance that class.
May create a group that isn't as good potentially as it could have been.

Nothing about randomizing the order of class selections entails people can't wheel and deal later - so these concerns needent operate any differently than they to today (and may indeed operate better)

We're not talking about randomly assigning classes, but randomly selecting classes.

If any two players later decide they'd like to trade classes, no problem! (Just as there is no problem with that today).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: We're talking about forty experienced people. If we can't work it out like grownups without layers of rules, how can we expect the people holding the thousands of non-GTs to do so?

I agree, but think it's a matter of context and expectations.

Heck - I've been on 2 GT runs - and it never occurred to me that the sign up list was anything other than what it presented as: namely a place where runs and classes are selected.

I've been operating under the belief that there was a rule, and the rule was: first come, first served.

I've never tried to switch up classes, because I thought it was set by rule.

For example, I think the current system is totally fair. It rewards the big buyers who place large preorders. Everyone knows they subsidize the game for everyone else and let Jeff make better plans.

A first come first served system doesn't reward big buyers, so much as it rewards:

1. People who preorder tokens
2. And also have a short USPS delivery route is shorter to the TD factory
3. And whose tokens get shipped first (TD doesn't always get all pre-orders in the mail in 1 day).

For those who order during the preorder, factors 2 and 3 determine who gets them first, not who supported TD the most.

That's assuming a lot.

Mongo wrote: Are the GT runs harder or are they like the rest where your group chooses a level?

The group chooses a level, although usually the combat ones run at HC or nightmare.

Because part of the GT run is a dungeon shakeout they do tend to be a bit harder, as it's the first feedback the dungeon gets on how hard things are - puzzles or combats that are calibrated as too challenging can get toned down. In principle things can get dialed up as well, but that in my observation that doesn't happen as much.

Also, DMs are less practiced on the GT runs, so combat is normally a bit slower.

Mongo wrote: Are the GT runs harder or are they like the rest where your group chooses a level?

The groups can choose, but they always choose Nightmare because most of the players are kitted for it. But, any newbies are loaned whatever UR+ equipment they want, if need be.

FirstGladiator wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

For example, I think the current system is totally fair. It rewards the big buyers who place large preorders. Everyone knows they subsidize the game for everyone else and let Jeff make better plans.

A first come first served system doesn't reward big buyers, so much as it rewards:

1. People who preorder tokens
2. And also have a short USPS delivery route is shorter to the TD factory
3. And whose tokens get shipped first (TD doesn't always get all pre-orders in the mail in 1 day).

For those who order during the preorder, factors 2 and 3 determine who gets them first, not who supported TD the most.

That's assuming a lot.

Um... No.

It's an empirical observation from someone who lives in California, and who always gets their tokens after people in the midwest.

This is easy to observe, because people like to post when they get their tokens.

Last year, it was literally 5+ days after the first GT slot was claimed that I got my preorder GTs from the factory (although due to a mixup at the factory my preorder was sent in two shipments - normally it's just 1-3 days slower).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

FirstGladiator wrote:

Rob F wrote: I didn't know that the GT's were only given to 40 experienced people??? I thought that everyone had a shot (a better shot the more you bought). I also didn't know that the GT's were designed to reward the big Token buyers??? Even if that were the case, which it's not, the only "fair" way is still to randomize class selection. And I don't see how randomizing a selection order is layering on rules.

If someone can point out a drawback for randomizing class selection order I'd be happy to listen. So far no one has.

People could get stuck playing a class that they have never played before.
May not have tokens to enhance that class.
May create a group that isn't as good potentially as it could have been.

Nothing about randomizing the order of class selections entails people can't wheel and deal later - so these concerns needent operate any differently than they to today (and may indeed operate better)

We're not talking about randomly assigning classes, but randomly selecting classes.

If any two players later decide they'd like to trade classes, no problem! (Just as there is no problem with that today).

How do you suggest someone wheels and deals to trade a class with someone else? Would you like some of my treasure because that doesn't seem fair. How about I bog things down and walk over to another GT run and see if someone there wants to switch groups so I can play a different class?

I think your approach would work if all the GT's were given out with preorders but we know they are not. What's more important being on a combat run or playing the class that you prefer? Why not then draw for which run you get to go on once all the GT's have been claimed and then draw for class selection? Why should someone who pulls a GT in June not have an equal opportunity to do a combat run?

Ryan Gresch wrote: How do you suggest someone wheels and deals to trade a class with someone else? Would you like some of my treasure because that doesn't seem fair. How about I bog things down and walk over to another GT run and see if someone there wants to switch groups so I can play a different class?

The exact way all the proponents of the current system maintain that this can/would happen today.

I.e. via any means available to "grownups" - presumably forum threads and PMs mostly.

Absolutely nothing about switching up roles after selection differs between the proposed system and the current one, so any criticism of this procedure is neutral with regard to the proposals.

I think your approach would work if all the GT's were given out with preorders but we know they are not. What's more important being on a combat run or playing the class that you prefer? Why not then draw for which run you get to go on once all the GT's have been claimed and then draw for class selection? Why should someone who pulls a GT in June not have an equal opportunity to do a combat run?

One thing at a time...

I'm not opposed to what you say here, but you seem to be trying to let the great be the enemy of the good.

Apologies if I'm misreading you, but I am interpreting your post as being against this proposal - for various reasons that all equally well apply to the status quo.

Either GT class selection is an issue worth tackling or it's not.

This proposal would either help it or not.

Observations that other things might benefit from other changes is not an argument that this proposed change is bad.

As a practical matter, entire GT runs don't tend to sell out within days of preorders being mailed - Rangers in combat runs do.

Definitely an amusing thread. Matt brings the age old idea of "pick a number" or "roll to see who goes first" to the TD forums and is met with some solid old school "why change, we've always done it that way" resistance. Hmmm...and here I thought everyone's boss made them read Who Moved My Cheese. And did I see someone actually suggest that people might not buy Tokens if the class selection orders were randomized for the GT runs? Really?? A few chuckles indeed. I get it, this TD community rocks and most people here will go out of their way to help others out and be super accommodating, especially the long time players. But that still doesn't mean the system of "I posted first on the forums so I call this class" is a good one. All Matt's trying to do here is offer an improvement. Outside of my children yelling dibs on the playground I can't think of another sport or game where that constitutes the rule. Who knows, maybe this year they won't toss the coin at the big game this Sunday and will just give the ball to the team who calls it first. Go Falcons!!!