TOPIC: Thoughts on XP

Aright, I seem to have missed a couple really exciting weeks on the forums, while getting into the groove of my new job. Bless you all, for keeping the place hopping in my absence

A huge shout-out to Jeff, too, for being bold & not afraid to shake things up! This is how True Dungeon came into being, and I’m excited to see how this new vision comes to life over the next few years.

I’m sad to see how heated the XP discussion got tho. It’s kinda moot now, since Jeff is bringing the Astral adventure to GenCon (brilliant move, IMHO) but it made me really think about XP and after reading through pages of debate, I wanted to share a couple thoughts:

First: This is about True Dungeon. Its not about any one of us, or our places on the Leaderboard. I’m thrilled to be in the highest echelons of XP, but that’s completely meaningless if TD falters or if Jeff throws in the towel. When it comes down to it, it doesn’t matter one blink what the lot of us think: This is Jeff’s game, and while it’s fantastic that he takes our input into consideration, if he thinks it’s best to offer XP for a non-GenCon event down the road, then so be it.

Second: I saw a lot of talk about “what the high XP players want.” What I didn’t see, though, was a lot of high XP players voicing their opinion. I suppose there may have been a letter-writing campaign which I wasn’t invited to, but among my TD friends there was far more discussion of “How can we make it down to Origins to see the cool new dungeon?” than “It’s unfair that we won’t get XP!” In other words, counter to the impression that Leaderboard is full of players jealously guarding their spots, my perspective is that it’s mostly people who care more about the game than their status. I could be wrong - others may voice different opinions - but that doesn’t mean they speak for me, or the rest of the Top 20 players, no matter how loudly they speak.


Since I don’t speak for the top XP players either, I’m going to share my personal opinion. Take it or leave it. Just don’t assume that it’s anything more than one person’s take:

- I like being at the top of the Leaderboard. It’s a cool perk for all those years I fought to get tickets, and played on the hardest difficulty possible. I hope to retain this status for as long as I can, but I’m aware that Real Life rears its ugly head from time to time, and we can’t always have what we want.

- Lots of other people have played True Dungeon repeatedly and are proud of their place on the Leaderboard. They deserve recognition for their loyalty and hard work, too. I don’t want to deny anyone XP if they’re putting in the time & effort to get tickets, and the investment to play on hard mode. Even if that means they pass me.

- It would bother me a lot if XP was handed out for things like token purchases, or exclusive runs. (For example: “Spend $10,0000 on tokens and get 1000 free XP!” or “Golden Ticket runs give 3000 XP instead of 2000 XP” or “Spend $6k and get a ticket to this Exclusive Patron Run worth 2000 XP”) In my mind, XP should be a badge showing “Look how much I’ve played!” and not “Look how much I spent!”

- It makes me happy to see True Dungeon expand to multiple Cons. If there’s new content coming out at those Cons, it deserves to have XP attached to it! (Especially if it draws more players to the event.) If I can’t make it to those Cons, I’ll just have to cross my fingers and hope that Jeff runs those dungeons later - maybe as a Retro Event - at a Con which I can make it to.

- If I’m hoping for XP from Retro runs (in case I can’t make a particular Con) then I’d better support other players getting XP for Retro runs, too. To that end, I support full XP for events like Viper’s Pit Retro.

- True Dungeon is awesome. That’s what makes the XP awesome; it’s an indicator of how much TD I have experienced. In the end, I value that experience more than any number on a Leaderboard. So let’s focus on the Experience, and not the XP.

Thanks, all!

Just one more comment I wanted to make...

Thank you Bob (and anyone who supported the idea) for a TD "Hall of Fame" to honour the top XP players. It's terribly kind of you to want to recognize others' efforts and achievements.

I don't personally feel it's necessary - particularly not as a way to resolve the XP debate - and yet, it might be a cool idea to revisit down the road. In which case, I'd like to see it as a way to recognize a range of player achievements, not just XP levels.

It would be cool to have a TD Hall of Fame for feats such as:

* The Dagger-only Run
* Longest stretch of back-to-back runs
* First person to Solo a TD run
* First person to Solo a TD run on Nightmare
* Anyone who one-shotted Smoak with a Spear of Dragon-Slaying
* Killing the Draccus (if it happens!)
* The first Barbarian Turkey Leg run
* The Player who travels from the farthest away to attend the most TD events
* Other cool accomplishments which should be remembered

The barbarian turkey leg run was hell of a good time, must repeat.

I really want to get in on a Barbarian Turkey Leg run, myself!

Thank you Raven. Well thought out as usual.

Raven wrote: I really want to get in on a Barbarian Turkey Leg run, myself!

We did a nightmare no spells but allowed healing via paladin lay on hand turkey leg run, the retribution damage was crazy. Dm take 20 well you take 28.

Raven wrote: Aright, I seem to have missed a couple really exciting weeks on the forums, while getting into the groove of my new job. Bless you all, for keeping the place hopping in my absence

A huge shout-out to Jeff, too, for being bold & not afraid to shake things up! This is how True Dungeon came into being, and I’m excited to see how this new vision comes to life over the next few years.

I’m sad to see how heated the XP discussion got tho. It’s kinda moot now, since Jeff is bringing the Astral adventure to GenCon (brilliant move, IMHO) but it made me really think about XP and after reading through pages of debate, I wanted to share a couple thoughts:

First: This is about True Dungeon. Its not about any one of us, or our places on the Leaderboard. I’m thrilled to be in the highest echelons of XP, but that’s completely meaningless if TD falters or if Jeff throws in the towel. When it comes down to it, it doesn’t matter one blink what the lot of us think: This is Jeff’s game, and while it’s fantastic that he takes our input into consideration, if he thinks it’s best to offer XP for a non-GenCon event down the road, then so be it.

Second: I saw a lot of talk about “what the high XP players want.” What I didn’t see, though, was a lot of high XP players voicing their opinion. I suppose there may have been a letter-writing campaign which I wasn’t invited to, but among my TD friends there was far more discussion of “How can we make it down to Origins to see the cool new dungeon?” than “It’s unfair that we won’t get XP!” In other words, counter to the impression that Leaderboard is full of players jealously guarding their spots, my perspective is that it’s mostly people who care more about the game than their status. I could be wrong - others may voice different opinions - but that doesn’t mean they speak for me, or the rest of the Top 20 players, no matter how loudly they speak.


Since I don’t speak for the top XP players either, I’m going to share my personal opinion. Take it or leave it. Just don’t assume that it’s anything more than one person’s take:

- I like being at the top of the Leaderboard. It’s a cool perk for all those years I fought to get tickets, and played on the hardest difficulty possible. I hope to retain this status for as long as I can, but I’m aware that Real Life rears its ugly head from time to time, and we can’t always have what we want.

- Lots of other people have played True Dungeon repeatedly and are proud of their place on the Leaderboard. They deserve recognition for their loyalty and hard work, too. I don’t want to deny anyone XP if they’re putting in the time & effort to get tickets, and the investment to play on hard mode. Even if that means they pass me.

- It would bother me a lot if XP was handed out for things like token purchases, or exclusive runs. (For example: “Spend $10,0000 on tokens and get 1000 free XP!” or “Golden Ticket runs give 3000 XP instead of 2000 XP” or “Spend $6k and get a ticket to this Exclusive Patron Run worth 2000 XP”) In my mind, XP should be a badge showing “Look how much I’ve played!” and not “Look how much I spent!”

- It makes me happy to see True Dungeon expand to multiple Cons. If there’s new content coming out at those Cons, it deserves to have XP attached to it! (Especially if it draws more players to the event.) If I can’t make it to those Cons, I’ll just have to cross my fingers and hope that Jeff runs those dungeons later - maybe as a Retro Event - at a Con which I can make it to.

- If I’m hoping for XP from Retro runs (in case I can’t make a particular Con) then I’d better support other players getting XP for Retro runs, too. To that end, I support full XP for events like Viper’s Pit Retro.

- True Dungeon is awesome. That’s what makes the XP awesome; it’s an indicator of how much TD I have experienced. In the end, I value that experience more than any number on a Leaderboard. So let’s focus on the Experience, and not the XP.

Thanks, all!

Well said Raven

Raven wrote: Just one more comment I wanted to make...

Thank you Bob (and anyone who supported the idea) for a TD "Hall of Fame" to honour the top XP players. It's terribly kind of you to want to recognize others' efforts and achievements.

I don't personally feel it's necessary - particularly not as a way to resolve the XP debate - and yet, it might be a cool idea to revisit down the road. In which case, I'd like to see it as a way to recognize a range of player achievements, not just XP levels.

It would be cool to have a TD Hall of Fame for feats such as:

* The Dagger-only Run
* Longest stretch of back-to-back runs
* First person to Solo a TD run
* First person to Solo a TD run on Nightmare
* Anyone who one-shotted Smoak with a Spear of Dragon-Slaying
* Killing the Draccus (if it happens!)
* The first Barbarian Turkey Leg run
* The Player who travels from the farthest away to attend the most TD events
* Other cool accomplishments which should be remembered

Does traveling from Buenos Aires, Argentina count? That was my starting city for Origins 2017 and GameHoleCon 2017 (and 2016 for that matter)...

Absolutely loved the Barbarian Turkey Leg Run! I bought a bunch of tokens to drop my armor class (and dexterity) while adding lots of retribution damage! It was a blast! I have kept my build set aside with those retribution damage tokens and potions to drop dexterity/ac just for fun in case we can do it again!

Raven wrote: Second: I saw a lot of talk about “what the high XP players want.” What I didn’t see, though, was a lot of high XP players voicing their opinion.

I think it is inferential based on numerous proposals put forward, both in the recent debate and in the past years, whose apparent purpose is clearly to keep the leader board rankings static, as long players keep showing up to Gen Con and getting to room 7 on Nightmare.

This includes proposals such as:

1. Annual XP capped to what can be obtained at Gen Con alone.
2. XP for redux / best of / retro dungeons limited to people under some XP cap (5th level, 7th level)
3. XP simply not awarded for dungeons not at Gen Con
4. Extra XP awarded to those at the top of the leaderboard (this one may have been tongue in cheek, but it was mentioned in the recent thread).

Regardless of what the top players may actually want, proposals such as this have the effect of keeping the leader-board static, and so it is a reasonable inference that those who promote these approaches do so for the purpose of keeping the leaderboard static.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Raven wrote: Second: I saw a lot of talk about “what the high XP players want.” What I didn’t see, though, was a lot of high XP players voicing their opinion.

I think it is inferential based on numerous proposals put forward, both in the recent debate and in the past years, whose apparent purpose is clearly to keep the leader board rankings static, as long players keep showing up to Gen Con and getting to room 7 on Nightmare.

This includes proposals such as:

1. Annual XP capped to what can be obtained at Gen Con alone.
2. XP for redux / best of / retro dungeons limited to people under some XP cap (5th level, 7th level)
3. XP simply not awarded for dungeons not at Gen Con
4. Extra XP awarded to those at the top of the leaderboard (this one may have been tongue in cheek, but it was mentioned in the recent thread).

Regardless of what the top players may actually want, proposals such as this have the effect of keeping the leader-board static, and so it is a reasonable inference that those who promote these approaches do so for the purpose of keeping the leaderboard static.

Drawing such inferences, then srguing against the proposals based on them, is the essence of the ad hominem fallacy.

So no, I don’t think it’s reasonable. I’m fact I think it’s counterproductive as people waste energy on arguing state of mind.. Proposals can be good or bad, regardless of the motivations behind them, and I feel they should be discussed on their own merits.

One of the reasons some discussions get so heated is people feel their character and motives are under personal attack, then they respond in kind, and soon everyone is taking everything as a personal attack. Because when you get down to it, it kind of is.

I'm glad the XP thing is more or less settled. The changes made means that for me, Origins is the fun runs with only needing to play one new dungeon one time for XP, and GenCon will hold two must-play runs which fits into the volunteering schedule easier (if I get picked! *cross fingers*)

Instead of spending a ton of money on four runs at GenCon, I'm spending it on two runs for sure and then see if anyone wants a Hawk Fingle to run with them for fun on the side if I have time. Or maybe spend time seeing the rest of GenCon and save that money that would have been spent on two more runs. Either way, it's going to be a good time.

I expect I'll do more runs at Origins though, since it is more affordable there and the level of competition for tickets wasn't like GenCon. Origins means more treasure pulls for me than at GenCon, too, and that's always a plus.

Raven, it would be amazing to see you at Origins. It's so much more relaxed than at GenCon. It'd be nice to actually sit and talk for a change instead of the GenCon rush to the next slot.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Raven wrote: Second: I saw a lot of talk about “what the high XP players want.” What I didn’t see, though, was a lot of high XP players voicing their opinion.

I think it is inferential based on numerous proposals put forward, both in the recent debate and in the past years, whose apparent purpose is clearly to keep the leader board rankings static, as long players keep showing up to Gen Con and getting to room 7 on Nightmare.

This includes proposals such as:

1. Annual XP capped to what can be obtained at Gen Con alone.
2. XP for redux / best of / retro dungeons limited to people under some XP cap (5th level, 7th level)
3. XP simply not awarded for dungeons not at Gen Con
4. Extra XP awarded to those at the top of the leaderboard (this one may have been tongue in cheek, but it was mentioned in the recent thread).

Regardless of what the top players may actually want, proposals such as this have the effect of keeping the leader-board static, and so it is a reasonable inference that those who promote these approaches do so for the purpose of keeping the leaderboard static.

Drawing such inferences, then srguing against the proposals based on them, is the essence of the ad hominem fallacy.

So no, I don’t think it’s reasonable. I’m fact I think it’s counterproductive as people waste energy on arguing state of mind.. Proposals can be good or bad, regardless of the motivations behind them, and I feel they should be discussed on their own merits.

One of the reasons some discussions get so heated is people feel their character and motives are under personal attack, then they respond in kind, and soon everyone is taking everything as a personal attack. Because when you get down to it, it kind of is.

An ad-hominem attack is an attempt to discredit an argument by bringing negative characteristics of the person making the argument that are otherwise irrelevant to the argument into play.

Stating the implications of a policy someone advocates for is not ad-hominem towards that person.

If you advocate for a policy which entails outcomes X, Y, and Z, it is reasonable for people infer, and then state, that you are in favor of X, Y, and Z.

Saying "Constituency A wants X, Y, and Z" is a reasonable and comprehensible shorthand for: "Constituency A is advocating for policies that bring X, Y, and Z about."

If you truly are against or neutral to X, Y, and Z despite supporting policies that primarily bring them about, it is up to you to clarify how your position makes sense. Until you do so it is reasonable for others to state: "You want X, Y, and Z" as shorthand for "Your behavior is supporting a policy that would bring about X, Y, and Z."

You play fast and loose with your use of the English language.

Your idea of “reasonable shorthand” is inflammatory and defamatory.

Did you know car accidents cause more deaths than firearms? Do you agree with banning all automobiles? If not, you’re in favor of killing 12,000 innocent children a year.

So now I’ve dismissed your opposition to car bans by refusing to listen to any of your logical arguments on the basis you’re a monster who wants to kill children.

I said that’s the “essence of ad hominem” - I’ve attacked your character instead of addressing your logic. And you’d be fully justified in being offended by my “reasonable shorthand.”