TOPIC: New Official Ghosting Rule

Thanks so much for your input on this subject. Due to a lot of factors the one-year old rules needed an updating, and you can read them below. We will update the PHB later this week with these newer rules.

Not much has changed since last year with these noticeable exceptions:

1) The "5 Ghosts Max" rule now applies to all Cons -- not just Gen Con. Previsouly, ghosting was only allowed at Gen Con.

2) We clarified that "the max of 5" rule applies to Treasure Bags, Treasure Chips and Completion tokens, and that only real humans get Survivor buttons.

Thanks again!

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Ghosting Rules 2018

In most circumstances, when the full complement of 10 players has not arrived before the official start time, we attempt to fill the group from players on the waiting list. However, there are exceptions.
Some groups prefer to play their adventure with less than 10 people but still maintain a “full” party. This is colloquially known as “ghosting.” Ghosting is permissible at all TD-attended conventions as long as all of these parameters are adhered to:

1. All 10 hard tickets must be purchased by one or more players in the group. They may not pay for the runs with generic tickets. A hard ticket is a single ticket that specifies the exact date and time of the event the participant paid for. A hard ticket isn’t necessarily a physical item. At some conventions, electronic tickets are utilized.
Note: The aforementioned rule for hard tickets only applies to groups deliberately running with less than 10 people. Players who fill in an incomplete party off the waiting list may pay with generic tickets.

2. All 10 hard tickets must be turned in.

3. All 10 wristbands must be put on members of that group. E.g., if a group chooses to run their adventure with eight people, two players would each wear two wristbands or one player would wear three wristbands. Determining which player(s) wear the extra wristband(s) is decided by the hard ticket holder(s).

4. Up to 10 bags of tokens will be distributed to the group, as determined by who is wearing the extra wristband(s). E.g., if a group chooses to run their adventure with eight people, two players would each receive two bags of tokens or one player would receive three bags of tokens. It’s up to the hard ticket holder(s) to decide how the extra bags are allotted.

Note: Even if the party is comprised of more than five Ghost players, no more than five token bags will be given to Ghost characters.

5. No matter how many wristbands a player is wearing, no person may play more than one character. So yes, someone could buy all 10 slots and solo the dungeon, but that person may only play a single character, not ten.

6. Only Treasure-Enhancing (TE) or Synergistic tokens may be “equipped” on Ghost characters.
Note: Ghost characters cannot duplicate a class currently being played by a real person. E.g., if the party contains a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, and Wizard, no Ghost character can equip a Cabal item because none of the remaining classes are eligible to equip a Cabal item.

7. Even though the maximum number of Ghost characters on a run is nine, no more than five Ghost characters may receive any TREASURE CHIP bonus. All Ghost characters can equip TEs if they wish, but only five Ghost characters will receive any TREASURE CHIPS.

Example 1: If one person buys out the slot of all 10 tickets, five of the Ghost characters can have a number entered in the Total Treasure calls on the Party Card, but four will be left blank. The real player’s TE bonus will, of course, be that of the actual solo player. Synergistic TEs on non-eligible Ghosts count towards the synergy bonus on the eligible Ghosts. E.g., if someone solos the dungeon with 10 CHARMS OF AVARICE, only five Ghosts will get TREASURE CHIPS, but the COA bonus for those five Ghosts will be at its max.
Example 2: The party consists of five real players and five Ghost players. In this case, all 10 characters can have a number entered into Total Treasure on the Party Card.

8. Like token bags and TREASURE CHIPS, Completion Token reward(s) for Ghosts are capped at five, even if the party is comprised of more than five Ghost characters. If the game is being played on Nightmare difficulty, up to five Ghosts can earn both the Uncommon and Rare Completion Tokens. For all other difficulties, up to five Rare or Uncommon Completions Tokens—as dictated by that particular difficulty’s reward for a real person—will be awarded to Ghost characters.

9. Since Ghosts players have no level, they cannot earn an extra TREASURE CHIP via the 6th-level bonus--only real players who are at least 6th-level can claim that bonus. E.g., a 6th-level player soloing the dungeon would receive +1 TREASURE CHIP for being 6th-level, in addition to whatever other bonuses that person was entitled to. (This rule was amended in late 2019.)

10. Remember, each party is limited to a maximum of five Ghost characters and five sets of Ghost rewards. This includes token bags, TREASURE CHIPS, and Completion Tokens. Survivor Badges are only rewarded to real people—Ghosts do not get any Survivor Badges.

Thank you Jeff!

I appreciate all you went through in coming up with this!

I think most if not all will be happy with your decision.

I personally am sorry for any headache I know I must have caused you before you coming up with this clarification.

I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify this, Jeff.

I'm also glad that ghosting could be extended to other Cons, and that the rules are the same across the board. It's a lot easier to remember (and explain) one set of rules, and will go a long ways towards TD's goal of Consistency.

- Raven


BTW, I don't know if anyone besides me has run the math... (I suspect it's the kind of thing which Brad Mortensen might have done) but the 5 ghost rule is (strictly speaking) "better" for people who like treasure, than having unlimited ghosts but capped at 10 treasure chips.



So, depending on how many people decide to go this route, we may be exacerbating the problems which the token market is having. I'm interested in seeing how things play out in the long run.

Thanks a bunch for clarifying everything Jeff. Can't wait for Origins/Gen Con. Glad this has a result that everyone can be happy with that doesn't hurt people that purchased full runs with intentions of ghosting before the Gen Con rule change. As always sir you are the man!

Raven wrote: I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify this, Jeff.

I'm also glad that ghosting could be extended to other Cons, and that the rules are the same across the board. It's a lot easier to remember (and explain) one set of rules, and will go a long ways towards TD's goal of Consistency.

- Raven


BTW, I don't know if anyone besides me has run the math... (I suspect it's the kind of thing which Brad Mortensen might have done) but the 5 ghost rule is (strictly speaking) "better" for people who like treasure, than having unlimited ghosts but capped at 10 treasure chips.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

Unlimited Ghosts / Capped Treasure
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
9 Ghosts = 90 TC's
---
109 Treasure Chips

vs.

5 Ghosts Max / No Treasure Cap
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
5 Ghosts (with full complement of TE's) = 95 TCs
---
115 Treasure Chips


...and it's cheaper to buy 5 extra tickets than 9.

So, depending on how many people decide to go this route, we may be exacerbating the problems which the token market is having. I'm interested in seeing how things play out in the long run.

I agree, five ghosts provides more loot per dollar than a 10-chip cap - provided you keep to five or fewer ghosts. Both are clearly worse than the current system for folks who want to solo or pair.

Best I can say is, get some minstrels like Sir Robin, and make them promise not to actually play. That way you can solo with people to witness your exploits, and sing your theme tune during every battle.

To be fair TD, much like D&D, was never meant to be RPG solitaire.

And maybe fewer ghosts will allow a few more newbies in, and they’ll increase demand to help absorb the extra treasure. And the more someone plays, the more justified they feel in investing in their kit.

Economies are tricky things.

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks so much for your input on this subject. Due to a lot of factors the one-year old rules needed an updating, and you can read them below. We will update the PHB later this week with these newer rules.

Not much has changed since last year with these noticeable exceptions:

1) The "5 Ghosts Max" rule now applies to all Cons -- not just Gen Con. Previsouly, ghosting was only allowed at Gen Con.

2) We clarified that "the max of 5" rule applies to Treasure Bags, Treasure Chips and Completion tokens, and that only real humans get Survivor buttons.

Thanks again!

---

Ghosting Rules 2018

In most circumstances, when the full complement of 10 players has not arrived before the official start time, we attempt to fill the group from players on the waiting list. However, there are exceptions.
Some groups prefer to play their adventure with less than 10 people but still maintain a “full” party. This is colloquially known as “ghosting.” Ghosting is permissible at all TD-attended conventions as long as all of these parameters are adhered to:

1. All 10 hard tickets must be purchased by one or more players in the group. They may not pay for the runs with generic tickets. A hard ticket is a single ticket that specifies the exact date and time of the event the participant paid for. A hard ticket isn’t necessarily a physical item. At some conventions, electronic tickets are utilized.
Note: The aforementioned rule for hard tickets only applies to groups deliberately running with less than 10 people. Players who fill in an incomplete party off the waiting list may pay with generic tickets.

2. All 10 hard tickets must be turned in.

3. All 10 wristbands must be put on members of that group. E.g., if a group chooses to run their adventure with eight people, two players would each wear two wristbands or one player would wear three wristbands. Determining which player(s) wear the extra wristband(s) is decided by the hard ticket holder(s).

4. Up to 10 bags of tokens will be distributed to the group, as determined by who is wearing the extra wristband(s). E.g., if a group chooses to run their adventure with eight people, two players would each receive two bags of tokens or one player would receive three bags of tokens. It’s up to the hard ticket holder(s) to decide how the extra bags are allotted.

Note: Even if the party is comprised of more than five Ghost players, no more than five token bags will be given to Ghost characters.

5. No matter how many wristbands a player is wearing, no person may play more than one character. So yes, someone could buy all 10 slots and solo the dungeon, but that person may only play a single character, not ten.

6. Only Treasure-Enhancing (TE) or Synergistic tokens may be “equipped” on Ghost characters.
Note: Ghost characters cannot duplicate a class currently being played by a real person. E.g., if the party contains a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, and Wizard, no Ghost character can equip a Cabal item because none of the remaining classes are eligible to equip a Cabal item.

7. Even though the maximum number of Ghost characters on a run is nine, no more than five Ghost characters may receive any TREASURE CHIP bonus. All Ghost characters can equip TEs if they wish, but only five Ghost characters will receive any TREASURE CHIPS.

Example 1: If one person buys out the slot of all 10 tickets, five of the Ghost characters can have a number entered in the Total Treasure calls on the Party Card, but four will be left blank. The real player’s TE bonus will, of course, be that of the actual solo player. Synergistic TEs on non-eligible Ghosts count towards the synergy bonus on the eligible Ghosts. E.g., if someone solos the dungeon with 10 CHARMS OF AVARICE, only five Ghosts will get TREASURE CHIPS, but the COA bonus for those five Ghosts will be at its max.
Example 2: The party consists of five real players and five Ghost players. In this case, all 10 characters can have a number entered into Total Treasure on the Party Card.

8. Like token bags and TREASURE CHIPS, Completion Token reward(s) for Ghosts are capped at five, even if the party is comprised of more than five Ghost characters. If the game is being played on Nightmare difficulty, up to five Ghosts can earn both the Uncommon and Rare Completion Tokens. For all other difficulties, up to five Rare or Uncommon Completions Tokens—as dictated by that particular difficulty’s reward for a real person—will be awarded to Ghost characters.

9. 6th-level (or higher) players get one extra TREASURE CHIP for each wristband they’re wearing, up to a maximum of five Ghosts per party. E.g., a 6th-level player soloing the dungeon would receive +6 TREASURE CHIPs for being 6th-level (one for being a real person and five for the Ghosts), in addition to whatever other bonuses that person was entitled to.

10. Remember, each party is limited to a maximum of five Ghost characters and five sets of Ghost rewards. This includes token bags, TREASURE CHIPS, and Completion Tokens. Survivor Badges are only rewarded to real people—Ghosts do not get any Survivor Badges.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks, that seems very reasonable. You can always alter it in a year if you need to.

I know it's covered in your notes, but you might want to insert near the front of the rules (maybe at #1), something like this:

1) The "5 Ghosts Max" rule now applies to all Cons -- not just Gen Con. Previously, ghosting was only allowed at Gen Con. Parties can Ghost up to 9 tickets in a slot, but only a maximum of five Ghost players qualify for Treasure Bags, Treasure Chips and Completion tokens. Any Ghost players beyond five get no Treasure Bags, Treasure Chips or Completion Tokens, and no Ghost Players get Survivor buttons.

Thanks!
Mike

Raven wrote: I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify this, Jeff.

I'm also glad that ghosting could be extended to other Cons, and that the rules are the same across the board. It's a lot easier to remember (and explain) one set of rules, and will go a long ways towards TD's goal of Consistency.

- Raven


BTW, I don't know if anyone besides me has run the math... (I suspect it's the kind of thing which Brad Mortensen might have done) but the 5 ghost rule is (strictly speaking) "better" for people who like treasure, than having unlimited ghosts but capped at 10 treasure chips.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

Unlimited Ghosts / Capped Treasure
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
9 Ghosts = 90 TC's
---
109 Treasure Chips

vs.

5 Ghosts Max / No Treasure Cap
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
5 Ghosts (with full complement of TE's) = 95 TCs
---
115 Treasure Chips


...and it's cheaper to buy 5 extra tickets than 9.

So, depending on how many people decide to go this route, we may be exacerbating the problems which the token market is having. I'm interested in seeing how things play out in the long run.

True would be cheaper with 5 ghosts. but that also means you need 4 other people to farm with you. Which one would assume you are spiliting treasure with so investment is less but treasure per person is less as well. if you are not spilitling with them and just buying 6 tickets to all your runs you might run into the issue of running into somone else that bought 4 tickets intending to ghost. Which I would find hilarious as the two of you would only get 5 ghost between you for your greediness...lol. Good luck working that out greedy people. It also assumes the 6 ticket purchaser is equipping the 4 others with Charms of Good Fortune or CoA to maximise their tickets or again they know the other folks and probably are spiliting with them (if their intent is to farm and not just run 5 man).

Jeff, thank you. I do like this rule, and have a few questions/clarifications.

But before those, i want to be clear, i am not planning on ghosting tickets at origins, my questions are hypothetical and an attempt to close loopholes and avoid misunderstandings. I would actually rather save my money and purchase specific PYPs next year. And my only planned ghost at gencon is for a 5-man run...hopefully i dont have any no-shows.

A. Is it not possible to ghost tickets if the run does not sell out? Point 1 and 2 in your rules says all 10 hard tickets must be purchased and turned in. So, if i buy 4 tickets (because i only have 4 charm of avarice) and no other tickets sell, i will not be able to ghost only 3 tickets and run solo?

B. In point 1, you refer to all tickets purchased by the group; is that phrasing meant to imply that the purchasers must be a single group outside the confines of this event? ...um, im trying to say; what if a group of 6 players buys tickets. Then i buy the last 4. Can i ghost 3 of my tickets even though i havent organized beforehand with the other 6 players to do so?
B1. If not allowed, what about that group of 6 who then has a no show, can they ghost that last ticket even though they didnt buy the other 4?
B2. If yes, how can you tell the difference between a no show and an intentional ghost?
B2b. If answer to question A above is that the run must sell out to ghost, what if the other 4 tickets didnt sell (or gobto waitlist) and the group of 6 has a no-show? Some cons may allow last minute returns, but at least gencon will not.

C. What if i pirchase 4 tickets planning to ghost 3 and someone else buys 6 planning to ghost 5? Would that be up to the buyers involved to sort out? Or is there a rule to determine who gets the treasure?

I suppose not allowing split purchase ghosts does avoid issue C, but could hurt partial-party groups that have a no show. Also, i am uncertain how i feel about what seems like preferential treatment of buyers with 6+ charm of avarice (if you have to buy the full run to ghost at all, owning 2-5 charm of avarice leaves you at a disadvantage in regards to ghosting), but this may just be a personal bias as i am one of the few that falls in this category. Probably not a real issue, worth it anyway due to all the other factors at play, and/or not going to skew the rules to accommodate treasure farming.

Sorry for all the detail to worry about, just want to avoid issues...
Maybe the solution is to take the more strict rule set, but allow AC override on a rare case-by-case basis (ie. That 6 player group with last minute no show and they cant return the ticket).

jedibcg wrote:

Raven wrote: I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify this, Jeff.

I'm also glad that ghosting could be extended to other Cons, and that the rules are the same across the board. It's a lot easier to remember (and explain) one set of rules, and will go a long ways towards TD's goal of Consistency.

- Raven


BTW, I don't know if anyone besides me has run the math... (I suspect it's the kind of thing which Brad Mortensen might have done) but the 5 ghost rule is (strictly speaking) "better" for people who like treasure, than having unlimited ghosts but capped at 10 treasure chips.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

Unlimited Ghosts / Capped Treasure
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
9 Ghosts = 90 TC's
---
109 Treasure Chips

vs.

5 Ghosts Max / No Treasure Cap
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
5 Ghosts (with full complement of TE's) = 95 TCs
---
115 Treasure Chips


...and it's cheaper to buy 5 extra tickets than 9.

So, depending on how many people decide to go this route, we may be exacerbating the problems which the token market is having. I'm interested in seeing how things play out in the long run.

True would be cheaper with 5 ghosts. but that also means you need 4 other people to farm with you. Which one would assume you are spiliting treasure with so investment is less but treasure per person is less as well. if you are not spilitling with them and just buying 6 tickets to all your runs you might run into the issue of running into somone else that bought 4 tickets intending to ghost. Which I would find hilarious as the two of you would only get 5 ghost between you for your greediness...lol. Good luck working that out greedy people. It also assumes the 6 ticket purchaser is equipping the 4 others with Charms of Good Fortune or CoA to maximise their tickets or again they know the other folks and probably are spiliting with them (if their intent is to farm and not just run 5 man).

Hey, i was just typing that big post on this kind of thing...but raven was actually comparing 2 scenarios where a person buys all 10 tickets; one using the treasure cap of 10, and the other where only 5 ghosts get treasure and the last 4 tickets get nothing.

Personally, I think that buying tickets specifically to ghost, without prearranging it with the rest of the party, is a total jerk move. I suppose there has to be a rule about, but it’s sad that we do.

Scenario: someone buys six tickets to ghost five, and surprises the player(s) with other four tickets in the coaching room.

I don’t know how you prevent such sociopathic behavior, beyond public shame and ridicule. Maybe we grant a Director the authority to deny any and all treasure to the ghosts in cases where someone has clearly broken Wheaton’s Law.

kurtreznor wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Raven wrote: I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify this, Jeff.

I'm also glad that ghosting could be extended to other Cons, and that the rules are the same across the board. It's a lot easier to remember (and explain) one set of rules, and will go a long ways towards TD's goal of Consistency.

- Raven


BTW, I don't know if anyone besides me has run the math... (I suspect it's the kind of thing which Brad Mortensen might have done) but the 5 ghost rule is (strictly speaking) "better" for people who like treasure, than having unlimited ghosts but capped at 10 treasure chips.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

Unlimited Ghosts / Capped Treasure
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
9 Ghosts = 90 TC's
---
109 Treasure Chips

vs.

5 Ghosts Max / No Treasure Cap
1 Player (L6, with full complement of TE's) = 19 TCs
5 Ghosts (with full complement of TE's) = 95 TCs
---
115 Treasure Chips


...and it's cheaper to buy 5 extra tickets than 9.

So, depending on how many people decide to go this route, we may be exacerbating the problems which the token market is having. I'm interested in seeing how things play out in the long run.

True would be cheaper with 5 ghosts. but that also means you need 4 other people to farm with you. Which one would assume you are spiliting treasure with so investment is less but treasure per person is less as well. if you are not spilitling with them and just buying 6 tickets to all your runs you might run into the issue of running into somone else that bought 4 tickets intending to ghost. Which I would find hilarious as the two of you would only get 5 ghost between you for your greediness...lol. Good luck working that out greedy people. It also assumes the 6 ticket purchaser is equipping the 4 others with Charms of Good Fortune or CoA to maximise their tickets or again they know the other folks and probably are spiliting with them (if their intent is to farm and not just run 5 man).

Hey, i was just typing that big post on this kind of thing...but raven was actually comparing 2 scenarios where a person buys all 10 tickets; one using the treasure cap of 10, and the other where only 5 ghosts get treasure and the last 4 tickets get nothing.

Then it still wouldn't work exactly like that for Raven's scenario as I read it. Buying all 10 and the other 4 getting nothing means they don't get Charms of Avarice or Charms of Good Fortune. You cannot ghost them so you cannot equip them (again how I read it). that means you only have 6 characters getting TE boost meaning that it is only it is 1 less chip for each of them. Making the number 109 as well.

I don't think that is what she means though because she mentions that buying 5 extra tickets being cheaper than 9. Which is of course true but doesn't handle how you would get max treasure for you and your 5 ghost.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Personally, I think that buying tickets specifically to ghost, without prearranging it with the rest of the party, is a total jerk move. I suppose there has to be a rule about, but it’s sad that we do.

Scenario: someone buys six tickets to ghost five, and surprises the player(s) with other four tickets in the coaching room.

I don’t know how you prevent such sociopathic behavior, beyond public shame and ridicule. Maybe we grant a Director the authority to deny any and all treasure to the ghosts in cases where someone has clearly broken Wheaton’s Law.

You could prevent by having the coach ask any party with less than 10 but displaying 10 wristbands if they all are together. I am not saying that is some we do or don't want to do. But if that was what it needed to be to have ghosts there are ways to ensure the group is okay with having 4 ghosts, same as the party has to agree on the difficulty. Again not saying we need or don't need to do this just that it could be done.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Personally, I think that buying tickets specifically to ghost, without prearranging it with the rest of the party, is a total jerk move. I suppose there has to be a rule about, but it’s sad that we do.

Scenario: someone buys six tickets to ghost five, and surprises the player(s) with other four tickets in the coaching room.

I don’t know how you prevent such sociopathic behavior, beyond public shame and ridicule. Maybe we grant a Director the authority to deny any and all treasure to the ghosts in cases where someone has clearly broken Wheaton’s Law.

I suggest have a -10 to Every Stat in that instance